[Kevin Sharpe]

This is a fascinating story and has implications for anyone wishing to repair a Tesla in the future...

A San Diego man bought a high-end Tesla at auction for nearly half price, but now he can't get the company to activate the car.

Peter Rutman purchased the 2012 Model S Signature at auction in March for $50,000 then spent another $8,000 fixing it.

He says repairing the car has been easy; dealing with Tesla has been the challenge.

"I'm blacklisted all across the country," he said. "Nobody's allowed to help us. They're not allowed to sell us parts. They're not allowed to service the car. Nothing."

http://www.sandiego6.com/news/local...nightmare-with-a-Tesla-Model-S-277017201.html

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

At the beginning of this weeks EVTV show they had an interesting discussion about the "right to repair" and potential class action...

 

[Matt Beard]

Hmm... I can foresee this guy being wheeled out at every future "Tesla v. Auto Dealers" trial in the USA.

 

[Edd Beesley]

So if I understand it right, the car was "wrecked" but repairable. He asked Tesla to turn it back on, they said "not until we look at it" and that "look" included the option for them (the creator of the product) to declare "this is completely unsafe and should not be put back into service" and the guy said "no thanks, just turn it on".

 

[Jimbo]

I've been following this thread on TMC. As I understand it:

The guy bought a salvage car, fixed it up, then asked Tesla to switch it back on.

They told him that they would need to inspect the car first, at his cost, and only if it was roadworthy (in their opinion), would they switch it on. Otherwise they may quote for additional repair work before the car can be activated.

They also asked him to sign some kind of waiver/indemnity. He is refusing to do this, no one on the linked thread is sure why.

The other case is a guy who is using a stripped down Model S as a platform for a campervan project.

We all know what can happen when an unmodified EV catches fire, so is it unreasonable for Tesla to take this approach with cars that are (a) more likely to be a fire risk due to accident damage, or (b) have had safety or fire control features removed (knowingly or unknowingly)?

I wonder if we'll see more of this from other EV manufacturers in the future.

 

[Matt Beard]

So if I understand it right, the car was "wrecked" but repairable. He asked Tesla to turn it back on, they said "not until we look at it" and that "look" included the option for them (the creator of the product) to declare "this is completely unsafe and should not be put back into service" and the guy said "no thanks, just turn it on".

I think that the parts of the document (that Tesla are requiring him to sign) that he probably objects to are:

(5) if Tesla determines that sufficient repairs cannot be made to the Salvage Vehicle, Tesla will not service the Salvage Vehicle;
(6) Tesla will not sell any vehicle replacement parts directly to you or any non-Tesla certified body shop;

So they are saying that if they think it is too badly damaged, it's game over; and he will not be able to ever get any work done by anyone other than a Tesla certified body shop (not even changing a light bulb)

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

A number of people are proposing "right to repair" legislation including Jack Rickard (watch from 2:10:47);

 

[MetalHead]

The EU has some form of Right To Repair already under the Block Exemption Rules
http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/general-advice/right-to-repair-campaign.html
However I don't know enough about that to know what it actually means in reality beyond the warranty clause.

 

[Nick]

I thought right-offs were rated by severity and the worst couldn't be put back on the road. Presumably block exemption just means you can buy the parts, it doesn't mean that the repaired vehicle can be used on the road.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

I thought right-offs were rated by severity and the worst couldn't be put back on the road.

The insurance company sold it with salvage title which allows it to be returned to the road... Tesla cannot have the final say here and I predict it will be tested in court and Tesla will lose in both the US and EU.

Interesting background post here;

http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/salvage-title

 

[Nick]

The insurance company sold it with salvage title which allows it to be returned to the road...

A vehicle on salvage title cannot be used on the road. The USA like the UK requires a safety inspection before return to the road. There's no guarantee that it can be used on the road. Indeed people go to prison for title fraud. One wonders what the UK inspectors would make of a request to return a written-off EV to the road as I doubt they have the means to validate the safety of the electrical systems without manufacturer support.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

One wonders what the UK inspectors would make of a request to return a written-off EV to the road

Electric vehicles have been approved for road use in the UK for more than 100 years without reference to the OEM.

 

[Nick]

Electric vehicles have been approved for road use in the UK for more than 100 years without reference to the OEM.

I doubt they had car insurance 100 years ago, let alone Cat 4 write-offs!

 

[PMC Paul]

After a short exchange with @Kevin Sharpe on twitter this morning after he linked to another site running this story, I wanted to write a bit more than 140 characters. This is one of those stories that seems to draw people to one site or another - with very few in the middle. It's a headline grabber for sure, with most of the headlines seeming to be against Tesla.

I'm on Tesla's side - and this is my thought process. Whenever I try to follow the arguments for and against something I don't fully understand (I am no mechanic / vehicle engineer / technician / whatever they are called these days), I try to replay the scenario in a context I do understand. In this case, computer software. Websites specifically.

So I build CustomerX a bespoke website. I host it on my own private servers which I don't give out public access for uploading and downloading. This gives me cost saving benefits of not having to secure a multi-user system. If the code needs changing or maintenance, I do that and charge CustomerX an appropriate hourly rate for my services - or for free if its included in some sort of 6-12 month deal, for example.

After a few months, CustomerX says they want to take their website somewhere else - some offshore developer says he can make changes for half of my costs. No problem. I zip it all up and give it to them. As far as I am concerned it's their software. I'll also make it clear if there are any parts of the system which won't function if they require access to other parts of my internal server setup.

Another few months later, CustomerX comes back to me and says, we've made some modifications, can we put this software back on your severs.

Well, not a problem as such, but I am going to want to do a line-by-line inspection of the code before I put it on the server to make sure it's not going to compromise my systems. Not only do I have obligations to make sure my other customers data is also secure, but I have my brand and reputation to think of too. If their modifications cause a failure of other sub-systems, I'm going to have a lot of unhappy customers - not just one.

So I give CustomerX a form to sign saying that they have to cover the cost of this inspection, and if I do find any code which does not meet my security requirements they have to get it fixed first. I will be willing to quote for those fixes, although they can go back to someone else if they want. If they do go elsewhere, then the process repeats until I'm happy with the quality of the software. I'll also have no obligation to maintain any other parts of the software that the offshore developers might not have even touched.

Is my position that different from Tesla's?

I agree with the view point of being able to "self repair", but I also agree with Tesla's viewpoint. Unfortunately you are no longer just buying "a car". You are buying a component of a larger system.

I'm not sure if there is anything specifically in the terms of sale as I don't have access to one, but I would not be surprised if you don't actually ever "own" the software components in the car. Like that copy of iOS, Mac OS or Windows, Andriod, etc that you're using right now. You don't own it - you're granted a licence to use it under very specific conditions.

All Mr San Diego needs to do is to get someone else to write him a vehicle management system! :-D

 

[Simon Mac]

I doubt they had car insurance 100 years ago, let alone Cat 4 write-offs!

Nope but people have done EV conversions on regular road cars, for quite a while. These don't even need IVA approval, simply an MOT when next due.

A vehicle on salvage title cannot be used on the road. The USA like the UK requires a safety inspection before return to the road. There's no guarantee that it can be used on the road. Indeed people go to prison for title fraud. One wonders what the UK inspectors would make of a request to return a written-off EV to the road as I doubt they have the means to validate the safety of the electrical systems without manufacturer support.

My understanding was for a written off car to be put back on the road you only need a new MOT, and an identity check. So the safety inspection is only an MOT. If we are saying an MOT isn't a suitable safety check for EV's that's a different story! This would be a massive step back if we require MOT's for EVs to require the original manufacturer to certify the car, rather than an independently approved network of VOSA stations

Another few months later, CustomerX comes back to me and says, we've made some modifications, can we put this software back on your severs.

I'm not sure if there is anything specifically in the terms of sale as I don't have access to one, but I would not be surprised if you don't actually ever "own" the software components in the car. Like that copy of iOS, Mac OS or Windows, Andriod, etc that you're using right now. You don't own it - you're granted a licence to use it under very specific conditions.

I think it's more like you put some hidden code in your original site that tied it to your server's IP address.

CustomerX, goes to put his software on someone else's servers. The new hosting company are perfectly happy to do this as it passes their code validation checks, but the site refuses to run due to your hidden protection. You now have the customer over a barrel, refusing to tell them how to remove this protection until they pay you an arbitrary fee.

This is the exact content in the "purchase agreement" (apologies for the formatting, I copied an pasted it from PDF) . No mention at all of licensing of software.

It does state I should have had some region specific attachments.... I never received these

Motor Vehicle Purchase Agreement
Terms & Conditions
Documentation. Your Motor Vehicle Purchase Agreem ent (the “Agreem ent”) consists of the following docum ents:
1. Vehicle C onfiguration: The Vehicle C onfiguration describes the vehicle that you have ordered and includes pricing of
the vehicle. The Vehicle C onfiguration m ay be updated from tim e to tim e, subject to the term s below.
2. Final Price Sheet: The Final Price Sheet will be provided to you as your delivery date nears. It will include final pricing
based on your final Vehicle C onfiguration.
3. Term s & C onditions: These Term s & C onditions are effective as of the date you place your order and apply to this
transaction.
Agreement to Purchase. You, the Buyer, agree to purchase the vehicle described in your Vehicle C onfiguration (the “Vehicle”)
from Tesla Motors Netherlands B.V. (“we,” “us” or “our”), pursuant to the term s and conditions of this Agreem ent.
Purchase Price. The purchase price of the Vehicle as indicated in your Vehicle C onfiguration attached to this Agreem ent is not
subject to change. However, if prior to delivery of the Vehicle you change the options you have selected, we m ay update your
Vehicle C onfiguration, which m ay affect the purchase price. Any changes m ade to your Vehicle C onfiguration will be reflected
in a subsequent updated written Vehicle C onfiguration provided by us, which configuration will be autom atically incorporated
herein. The purchase price of the Vehicle indicated on your Vehicle C onfiguration includes applicable VAT.
Status of Your Deposit: Custom Ordered Vehicle. You will have two weeks from the date you accept this Agreem ent to m ake
changes to or cancel your Vehicle C onfiguration. During this two week period, your deposit am ount is fully refundable. After the
two week period, you will receive an e-m ail confirm ation that your Vehicle C onfiguration has been sent for production. At this
point, your deposit becom es non-refundable. You m ay accelerate this process by contacting us and finally confirm ing your
Vehicle C onfiguration for production, at which tim e we will send your Vehicle C onfiguration to production and your deposit will
be com e non-refundable. Because your Vehicle is custom built to order, we incur significant costs in producing your Vehicle
once it enters our production system , so if you cancel or default in this Agreem ent, you agree that we m ay retain as liquidated
dam ages any cash down paym ent or deposit m ade by you, to the extent not otherwise prohibited by law. You also
acknowledge that the deposit am ount m ade by you is a fair and reasonable estim ate of the actual dam ages that we m ay incur
in processing a change or cancellation of a final order and for rem arketing and reselling the custom configured Vehicle. Except
for the “Special Circumstances” described below and as otherwise described in this Agreem ent, this Agreem ent is binding and
you m ay not cancel.
Status of Your Deposit: Inventory Vehicle. This paragraph shall apply if you are purchasing a Vehicle from our inventory (i.e.,
the vehicle has already been m anufactured, as indicated by an existing VIN). Your deposit amount is non-refundable. We
incur significant costs in preparing and coordinating the delivery of your Vehicle, including shipping logistics, so if you cancel or
default in this Agreem ent, you agree that we m ay retain as liquidated dam ages any cash down paym ent or deposit m ade by
you, to the extent not otherwise prohibited by law. You also acknowledge that the deposit am ount m ade by you is a fair and
reasonable estim ate of the actual dam ages that we m ay incur in transporting, rem arketing and reselling the Vehicle. Except for
the “Special Circumstances” described below and as otherwise described in this Agreem ent, this Agreem ent is binding and you
m ay not cancel.
Special Circumstances. This Agreem ent is subject to the two “Status of Your Deposit” paragraphs im m ediately above, however,
if you have indicated in your order that you intend to finance the Vehicle, and are not able to obtain financing from us or
another bank lender despite a bona fide, good faith effort to do so, you m ay cancel this contract and receive a full refund of
your deposit am ount. If this Agreem ent is concluded as a distance contract, you have a right to withdraw from this Agreem ent
within seven working days of delivery of the Vehicle. The cancellation provisions herein do not affect your statutory rights, if any,
with respect to revocation under applicable consum er law and shall not be interpreted as lim iting your statutory rights under
such laws.
Delivery. We will notify you in advance of the date your Vehicle is expected to be ready for delivery at your local Tesla Service
C enter, or other location as we m ay otherwise agree to, and unless we are in breach of this Agreem ent, you hereby agree to
schedule and take delivery of your Vehicle within one week of this date. If you are unable to take delivery within the specified
period, please contact us to request additional tim e, which we m ay grant at our sole discretion. If you are unable to take
delivery within the specified period, including any extension we m ay grant, you will be in breach of this Agreem ent, your
deposit will not be refunded pursuant to the “Status of Your Deposit” paragraphs above, and the Vehicle will be m ade available
for sale to other custom ers. If, on your behalf, we are coordinating the shipping of the Vehicle to you via a third party com m on
carrier, you hereby agree and acknowledge that delivery of the Vehicle, including the transfer of title and risk of loss, will occur
at the tim e your Vehicle is loaded onto the com m on carrier’s transport (i.e., FO B shipping point). The carrier will insure your
Vehicle while in transit and you will be the beneficiary of any claim s for dam age to the vehicle or losses occurring while the
vehicle is in the possession of a com m on carrier. To secure your final paym ent and perform ance under the term s of this
Agreem ent, you give us a security interest in the Vehicle and all proceeds therefrom until your obligations herein have been
fulfilled.
Warranty. You will receive the Tesla Motors New Vehicle Lim ited Warranty at or prior to the tim e of Vehicle delivery. You m ay
also obtain a written copy of such warranty from us upon request or download it from your MyTesla account. Furtherm ore,
warranties under this paragraph shall also include possible warranty claim s based on applicable statutory law
Tesla Motors Limited Registered in England and Wales No. 43840 0 8 Registered Office: Kings Chase, King Street, Maidenhead, SL6 1DP
Motor Vehicle Purchase Agreement - Europe (v. 20131004 en_GB)
Tesla Motors, Inc. ©20 14 Page 2 of 3
Limitation of Liability. Under no circum stances, except to the extent provided for by applicable law, we will not be held liable
for any incidental, special or consequential dam ages arising out of this Agreem ent. In the event we are held liable for any such
dam ages, your sole and exclusive rem edy will be lim ited to reim bursem ent of your deposit. This lim itation of liability clause
shall not apply in cases of willful m isconduct, willful deception or gross negligence on our part or in cases of death or personal
injury.
Vehicle Telematics Subscription. Your car includes an activated subscription service that records and sends diagnostic and
system data to Tesla to ensure that your car is operating properly, to guide future im provem ents and to allow us to locate your
car under certain lim ited circum stances. There is no charge for this service. Access to location data is tightly controlled within
Tesla and a history of such is not stored on our servers. We appreciate that custom er privacy is of param ount im portance
(please refer to our privacy policy regarding vehicle telem atics available at www.teslam otors.com /about/privacy). By accepting
this Agreem ent, you agree to the term s of our privacy policy. Please feel free to contact us at +1 (877) 798-3752 if you would
like to suspend your subscription to these services.
Governing Law; Integration; Assignment. The term s of this Agreem ent are governed by, and to be interpreted according to,
the laws of the European jurisdiction in which we are physically located for m otor vehicle sales that is nearest to your address
indicated on your Vehicle C onfiguration. Prior agreem ents, oral statem ents, negotiations, com m unications or representations
about the Vehicle sold under this Agreem ent are superseded by this Agreem ent. Term s relating to the purchase not expressly
contained herein are not binding. We m ay assign this Agreem ent at our discretion to one of our affiliated entities.
Region Specific Provisions. You acknowledge that you have read and understand the provisions applicable to you in the
Region Specific Provisions attachm ent to this Agreem ent.
Tesla

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

EVTV - Your Car Still Belong To Them (here)

Tesla remains an enigma. After announcing he was effectively “open sourcing” his Tesla Model S, apparently Mr. Musk feels it is appropriate to actively “disable” cars that have been wrecked until they can be proven safe, to his satisfaction, by a Tesla inspection. Mr. Peter Rutman, who cachinged out $50,000 for a salvaged Tesla, was treated woefully by the wider media who paternalistically labelled the entire affair a matter of caveat emptor – buyer beware.

 

[Nick]

Nope but people have done EV conversions on regular road cars, for quite a while. These don't even need IVA approval, simply an MOT when next due.

Last time that I registered a conversion I think that I needed an engineer's report to register the change of fuel type. Mind you I did write my own

An MOT does little more than check that the HV cable insulation is intact. I would suggest that's far from adequate to check that a high voltage vehicle is safe.

A UK Cat A write-off is badly damaged that there is no possibility of future use, no matter who inspects it.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

@Nick think about this.... do you seriously wish to be prevented from repairing your car (or having it repaired) just because it's an EV? Do you wish to be prevented from registering a conversion as you did before?

We are already seeing extortionate charges for parts and service from mainstream dealers and this will get worse if we allow OEMs to restrict our choices.

Jack Rickard also makes an interesting prediction (here) on the potential cost of insuring these cars in future (and IMO the impact on resale values);

I assume most of our viewers know how the salvage trade works. Basically, you wreck your Tesla. The only ones authorized to repair Tesla’s are Tesla. The insurance company contacts Tesla for a repair estimate. On receiving it (in shock) they almost always total the car. Simple aluminum body repairs ARE expensive, but not that expensive. This is going to drive insurance for Tesla Model S vehicles through the roof. Within a year, it will undoubtedly be the most expensive car in the world to insure.

 

[Nick]

@Nick think about this.... do you seriously wish to be prevented from repairing your car (or having it repaired) just because it's an EV? Do you wish to be prevented from registering a conversion as you did before?

My sole desire is that a car, whether repaired or converted, doesn't represent an unacceptable risk to its owner, users, passers-by, or maintenance personnel. I'm not exonerating Tesla, rather I'm saying that some inspection regime is desirable.

 

[Jimbo]

Tesla are just asking to inspect the car first. Because they haven't been allowed to by the owner, discussing the outcome of such an inspection is pure speculation.

Do Nissan reactivate written off Leafs without any kind of inspection? What is Renault's policy for the Zoe?