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Do you crave / Desire Self Driving cars and if so - what value do you place on it?

  • Yes, I can't wait, and would pay anything it costs for it

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes it sounds great and would pay a considerable sum (Perhaps £200 a month or £10,000 up front)

    Votes: 2 2.4%
  • Yes, it sounds great, I might seek out a car that has it or pay a bit more for it, but not too much

    Votes: 18 22.0%
  • It sounds good, but I wouldn't really pay much extra for it, it might swing a decision

    Votes: 14 17.1%
  • Pretty neutral on it and certainly wouldn't pay more, wouldn't be a decider in what car

    Votes: 19 23.2%
  • Not liking the idea, wouldn't pay more for it, and wouldn't have a car it couldn't be switched off

    Votes: 25 30.5%
  • Hate the idea - would avoid cars with it, if fitted and can't turn off, wouldn't buy the car.

    Votes: 14 17.1%
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So this massive push to Full Self Drive (FSD) - Do we as consumers really want it? I see more manufacturers seeking it out as a solution, I see it being pushed as amazing and so on, but I have yet to hear of a customer, someone actually buying the car, who wants it or seeks it out.

I work in the motor trade, and without exception, customers are wary of this new tech - they have phones and computers that work perfectly 99% of the time and then do something weird, and that view translates to "what if, just out of the blue the car software throws a wobbly, and swerves me away from a car coming in the other direction, but into the back of a car that's parked, or just throws me off a motorway or something?"

The people I meet are suspicious and sceptical about this stuff. On the motorway, the driver aids I have now I feel are enough. I love Adaptive Cruise - and that works pretty well 99% of the time, Lane Keep works pretty well on a motorway too keeping me dead centre in the lane. In traffic jams, the car craws along steering and braking, so almost self-drive - do any drivers actually want more than this?

Government seems to want to promote it - but is that just because UK has had good history with developing tech, and this is just another thing we can export and sell to the world?

I feel they must otherwise why would such vast resources be spent on developing it - and I guess if it worked perfectly and you could have a nap on a long trip that might be nice, but I ask myself would I ever trust it enough to actually nap while the car does 70?? I struggle to nap whilst my girlfriend does 70, and she's a pretty decent driver!

So you can pick 1 or 2 options above - where do you sit on this craze for getting FSD working and legislated for.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
well half an hour in, and only a few votes cast - but it's not that "Must have" ringing endorsement you'd want if you were spending billions developing something is it.....
 

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I’d like a slight improvement over autopilot. So lane changing to keep up the chosen speed without me signalling etc. That’s be my baseline, totally ok with that being dual carriageway or motorway only and ending 1 mile before a slip road etc

I’m not sure I’d totally trust one for urban roads in the uk. I barely trust myself to keep my car away from some of the idiots on the road. But maybe something like lane keeping, stopping for traffic lights, handling junctions etc.

my dream would be leaving the car to do its own thing. Like me driving to where I want to go, and telling the car to go find a parking spot, automatically register with ringo to pay the parking, then come pick me up when needed. Similarly when I need to take the train to work it could drop me at the station then drive home. That could let us drop to one car for the house which is good for finances and the environment. Car drops me at the stationthen drives home so the missis can use it to go to work, then it picks me up later after she’s home.

cost - wel has to be less than me just getting a taxi to do the above :) so not too much
 

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It's going to depend on experience, I think. My experience is heavily influenced by the fact that the driving assist features (the ones that cannot be turned off) on one car I owned were wholly unable to deal with the narrow and winding lanes around here, and very often (at least once every trip, often several times per trip) they would sound a false alarm and cause the car to take action, usually hard braking, sometimes a steering nudge in an unwanted direction. The problem was almost certainly that the technology, good as it was, just couldn't yet cope with this type of road. Not being able to turn it off was a nuisance, especially as the alarm noise was pretty loud.

I think there's also a bit of a conflict between the need for autonomous cars and the need for privately owned cars. It seems to me that once we get autonomous cars it would make more sense if they were just hired like taxis, so avoiding the need for privately owned cars. If you want to go somewhere just hail one and it takes you where you want to go, perhaps with another one taking you back again. Could take a lot of cars off the road. I can't much see the point of owning an autonomous car, as a large part of the car ownership experience, at least for me, is the enjoyment of driving the car. I do think that driving assistance features are great, when they work properly, as even the best driver in the world cannot see everything all around all the time. Ironing out the false alerts is probably going to be one of the hardest things to resolve, I think, but I've no doubt technology will get there before long.
 

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Having seen FSD beta 9 it seems to be ok when it's just lane following in simple lanes and turning at traffic lights. It's when it has to make decisions it seems to fail. I don't think it would even get off my housing estate without a lot of help. There are parked cars all over both sides of the road and you have to give way to oncoming cars.

Big wide simple american roads without conflict and looks ok. It still bugs out at stupid stuff. There was some video of a guy crawling over a roundabout at 3 mph grabbing the wheel and considering that was a success! Driving like a myopic learner on their first lesson is not my idea of adequate self driving. Will the cars be required to pass a driving test with an instructor under normal road conditions? I think they should.

The trouble with driver aids is if they don't work 100% of the time they're worse than not having them as you're having to correct for conditions when they fail as well as correcting for the mistakes of others. I wouldn't find FSD relaxing at all as you have to take over immediately it screws up so it is like being in a car with a learner driving.

Also watched a Waymo car getting stuck in the middle of an intersection as there was a cone and it was too stupid to go round it. They had to get a human to come out and rescue the car. It sat in a busy junction putting the passenger at risk of being hit for quite some time. Then it tried to drive off when the rescuer turned up!

Are the type of drivers that want a car to drive for them the type of driver that should be training a car? I'd think you'd want advanced ROSPA and police drivers to train them.

I think it would be a fun experiment to set up cameras following learners driving a tesla and tesla driving itself and see if folk could tell which was which and who was doing a better job. It would then give an idea how far along the development was.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I agree - I feel the one area humans are still better than computers is in making a value judgement. Computers make fixed logical judgements based on data, humans have to make an instinctive judgement - and when driving we all sometimes see something we've never seen before - we have to then make a call, something a computer can't do - if it can't deal with the data it can't make a decision.....
 

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So this massive push to Full Self Drive (FSD) - Do we as consumers really want it? I see more manufacturers seeking it out as a solution, I see it being pushed as amazing and so on, but I have yet to hear of a customer, someone actually buying the car, who wants it or seeks it out.
Self driving cars will not be about individual customers, it will be about corporates replacing employed drivers en masse, either completely , or huge wage cuts and demoted to "cars assistant mate" , your job is o sit there on minimum wage and transport things from the car to final 10 yards by foot. Taxi and Bus drivers, obsolete.

As an individual customer you may have the choice form a while, but insurance legislation will come that make "owner driving" illegal except in emergency situations, or in "classic cars" not fitted with FSD tech. but there will be a huge insurance cost for "owner driver" cars and it will be the preserve of the Wealthy.

Middle class and plebs will be expected to "hire" a FSD car on demand, not own.

I would say by 2070 this will be the day to day reality, all the petrolheads are dead or to old to drive, a few generations of only knowing EV's and FSD tech, quite willing to take the next step to ban majority "owner controlled driving" of all vehicles. I also fully expect all cars from all brands to have communication awareness in a hive net of what every other car is doing whithin say a 1 mile radius. Things like pile ups of 20-50 cars in FOG / Black ICE / SNOW conditions will be a thing of the past because as soon as a car in that direction detects other cars have "crashed" 1 mile ahead out of sight they will immediately slow and auto filter to clear lanes around the blockage, or a complete halt if all lanes and hard shoulder are impassable.

It might be just the emergency services that are the last manual drivers after 2070, as they will be able to strong arm FSD cars by bullying their sensors to move out of the way, but this will only be in true "emergency" situations, all other times their vehicles will be in FSD mode.
 

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I hate the idea of it in my car whilst I'm driving.... But I can see tremendously great value for others out there who don't enjoy driving or can't drive safely.

I also think the idea of a car that can fully self drive, but is also capable of being fully driven is great too.

I mean it could:
  • bring in different vehicle ownership models - the car drives itself between the few people in a car-purchase share
  • Allow EVs to clear off and charge themselves at adjacent-to-grid charging stations when not in use (over night or whilst working etc) - lightening the load on the domestic grids, and removing the need for loads of destination-style chargers.
  • Imagine going for a hike/cycle/kayak/swim, where the car drives its self to your finish point, ready for you?
  • etc etc
 

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Self driving cars will not be about individual customers, it will be about corporates replacing employed drivers en masse, either completely , or huge wage cuts and demoted to "cars assistant mate" , your job is o sit there on minimum wage and transport things from the car to final 10 yards by foot. Taxi and Bus drivers, obsolete.

As an individual customer you may have the choice form a while, but insurance legislation will come that make "owner driving" illegal except in emergency situations, or in "classic cars" not fitted with FSD tech. but there will be a huge insurance cost for "owner driver" cars and it will be the preserve of the Wealthy.

Middle class and plebs will be expected to "hire" a FSD car on demand, not own.

I would say by 2070 this will be the day to day reality, all the petrolheads are dead or to old to drive, a few generations of only knowing EV's and FSD tech, quite willing to take the next step to ban majority "owner controlled driving" of all vehicles. I also fully expect all cars from all brands to have communication awareness in a hive net of what every other car is doing whithin say a 1 mile radius. Things like pile ups of 20-50 cars in FOG / Black ICE / SNOW conditions will be a thing of the past because as soon as a car in that direction detects other cars have "crashed" 1 mile ahead out of sight they will immediately slow and auto filter to clear lanes around the blockage, or a complete halt if all lanes and hard shoulder are impassable.

It might be just the emergency services that are the last manual drivers after 2070, as they will be able to strong arm FSD cars by bullying their sensors to move out of the way, but this will only be in true "emergency" situations, all other times their vehicles will be in FSD mode.
Exactly this^^^^^^^^ we wont own cars and so will it matter? We will be able to walk and cycle safely no parking required as you will call a car or walk whats not to like
 

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It will be great when it's ready.

When a self-driving car crashes, who pays? When it isn't the driver or their insurance company (there isn't a driver, in any sense anymore) but the company that made the car, then it's ready.
 

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They'd happily take on that liability and pass the cost back to you in the hire cost. But at present there's still the need for a driver for the 1% exceptions when it doesn't work, and until that's fully eliminated to a "once in a lifetime" level to sort out an impasse then I can't see it happening.
 

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Driver assistance is fine by me. But have no interest in level 5 full autonomous. The market for a full level 5 car when we all get old is at first seems appealing. But worth remembering most really old people beyond driving anymore quite like getting a taxi because they get to talk to a driver and even get the shopping in and out of the car for them. The value of human contact for the folk who are really old and by then usually alone should not be underestimated.
 

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Hate the idea. Don't even like my Leaf's lane departure warning, let alone the steering assist.

ACC and IEB are worth having though.

if you want to become a slave to the electronics and just there in case it messes up, fine, but it's not for me and I'd fall asleep and probably wake up in hospital.
 

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I want fully autonomous vehicles.
People are not good at controlling these metal boxes.

the sooner we move to a model of transport as a service the better for the environment, congestion and safety.

It’s a long way off - not that I want to predict how long that will be.
 

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Next generation probably won’t need to learn how to drive, and their kids will feel the same way about car ownership as we do about bus ownership.

Bring it on. I can think of better things to do during a long commute than driving, and once autonomous cars are out there it won’t be long before a subscription is cheaper than new car ownership.
 

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I want fully autonomous vehicles.
People are not good at controlling these metal boxes.

the sooner we move to a model of transport as a service the better for the environment, congestion and safety.

It’s a long way off - not that I want to predict how long that will be.
and what the hell is a man supposed to clean at the weekend ?
 

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the sooner we move to a model of transport as a service the better for the environment, congestion and safety.
Oh Yeah, that was how Uber was pitched and that's worked out so well. Traffic is up significantly in towns and cities with associated pollution, increased journey times etc. , and I'll skate over the issues of unlicensed drivers but comment that today it was virtually impossible even using our company's account to get a taxi/Uber possibly as it was Eid al-Adha (even I'll admit FSD is unlikely to be religiously observant).
 

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When (if) we get to level 5 self driving, it will be a real game changer. But... at the moment we're barely at level 2, and those people "relying" on the very limited functionality currently available are actually unpaid test drivers, and taking a risk I personally wouldn't with insurance, personal liability, and moral liability - how would you feel, and who would pay out, if your self driving car kills a pedestrian?
 

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For a friend who has had to give up his driving licence because of poor eyesight, a Level 5 self-driving car would possibly be useful, but having a system which needs a driver to be alert in case the system cannot interpret the conditions will be tempting drivers to do things they should not be doing while driving (such as texting, or nodding off) and therefore not alert and aware of the road conditions around them when the system suddenly says it requires driver intervention.
 
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