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Actually I think that is a bad idea. So long since I've needed any, I've forgotten how much it costs to fill a car with petrol, but when you load the price of charging to that level it removes one of the arguments for EVs - cheap on-the-road motoring. Yes, of course to make it sustainable all rapid charging must be paid for, but for a reasonable price.
Owning and driving EV are about so much more than cheap motoring.

Considering rapid charging is optional and only covers a small proportion of your EV miles, ultra-expensive rapid charging would not change the price of EV ownership by much.

But when travelling long distance, having the option to use those ultra-expensive rapid charging services would make EV journeys a lot easier than today. Imagine arriving at a service attached to the motorway, park at a rapid charger and starts to charge without any fuss. Inside there is an open lobby, nice toilets and restaurants.
(wait, that's just motorway services! except with multiple working chargers)

All I'm saying is, I'm willing to pay more for guaranteed good experience and convenience on trunk roads when travelling. Current infrastructure means I still need to have a dirty diesel to make those journeys.
 

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Owning and driving EV are about so much more than cheap motoring.

Considering rapid charging is optional and only covers a small proportion of your EV miles, ultra-expensive rapid charging would not change the price of EV ownership by much.

But when travelling long distance, having the option to use those ultra-expensive rapid charging services would make EV journeys a lot easier than today. Imagine arriving at a service attached to the motorway, park at a rapid charger and starts to charge without any fuss. Inside there is an open lobby, nice toilets and restaurants.
(wait, that's just motorway services! except with multiple working chargers)

All I'm saying is, I'm willing to pay more for guaranteed good experience and convenience on trunk roads when travelling. Current infrastructure means I still need to have a dirty diesel to make those journeys.
Yes but for petrol the price difference between local and motorway is around 25 to 30 percent not 600%.
I get that we have and be prepared to pay more but surely not that much more.
 

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The purpose of EVs as opposed to ICE is to avoid burning fossil fuels and reduce environmental damage.

The real question is therefore whether mass EV uptake would benefit more from copious free public charging with all the pitfalls, or from reliable but expensive public charging.

Personally I say free charging (or at least very cheap charging eg Dundee council at 15p/kWh). Not all can easily install a chargepoint at home and the perception of low running costs is very important for the millions of middle class people who perceive that they are only just getting by and want to do their bit in the face of climate crisis but are wary of cost.
 

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The purpose of EVs as opposed to ICE is to avoid burning fossil fuels and reduce environmental damage.

The real question is therefore whether mass EV uptake would benefit more from copious free public charging with all the pitfalls, or from reliable but expensive public charging.

Personally I say free charging (or at least very cheap charging eg Dundee council at 15p/kWh). Not all can easily install a chargepoint at home and the perception of low running costs is very important for the millions of middle class people who perceive that they are only just getting by and want to do their bit in the face of climate crisis but are wary of cost.
 

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I don’t see at all why EV ‘fuel’ has to be cheaper than petrol or diesel.

And why are people still obsessing over the Ionity pricing structure? It’s their business model, if they’ve got it that wrong they’ll go out of business.

I don’t get this idea that we should somehow be entitled to no/low/cost price electricity from Rapids because we’re somehow doing the world a favour by driving an EV.

We made those choices, nobody forced an arm up my back, I drive an EV for all sorts of reasons, and running costs are pretty low down the list to be honest, I could buy a lot of petrol with the money I spent to buy an EV.

Let’s take a dose of reality as well, we are still very much in the early days of EV adoption, if you think the £1 per kWh charge is a grim fantasy, just wait until HM Gov get involved in and start putting duty on top of electricity drawn whilst away from home to ensure we ‘pay our fair share’.

Might not be for a few years, but we’re living in fantasy land if we think it isn’t coming someday.
 

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EV 'fuel' has to be cheaper than petrol or diesel otherwise there's no incentive for mass uptake of EVs and that means the UK will miss its emissions targets of 2035 or sooner if they can. In that sense yes, EV drivers today are doing the world a favour. A favour in 3 ways.
1) by reducing emissions though with so few EV drivers, the effect of this is minimal.
2) more importantly, helping develop the technology and thus make it cheaper for mass adoption.
3) iron out bugs in the EV charging infrastructure and thus make it easier for mass adoption.

For those reasons, it should be cheaper to drive an EV compared to fossil fuels for at least the next 5 years or so.

Agree eventually the government will add duty but that's 10 to 15 years away. If they add duty before then, it will again discourage EV take up and again mean they miss their emissions target. Once they have a captive audience as it were then agree they'll add duty or better still, create a new tax based on your odometer i.e tax by combination of how much you drive plus the fuel used.

Any increase in duty on electricity drawn away from home will itself trigger more interest in home grown electricity via solar panels or even wind if that tech gets cheap enough to add to homes whiich makes the break even point come sooner so long term that's acutally a good thing for the individual and the environment.
 

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I don’t see at all why EV ‘fuel’ has to be cheaper than petrol or diesel.
Because nobody in their right mind would buy a more expensive car (EV) which can't drive nearly as far and takes much longer to "fill up", if filling up is twice as expensive as filling a Diesel car. (As £1/kWh would be)

Zero incentive to buy an EV if its less convienient to use and more expensive. Difficult for the government to reach emissions targets if they price would be EV drivers out of the market...

The other issue is one of resources and efficiencies and the "value" of electricity - oil and the petrol and diesel that comes from it is a finite resouce which takes a lot of money and energy to drill, transport, refine and transport again to get to you as the consumer. You then put it in a vehicle which is around 25% efficient and throw the other 75% away as (mostly) unwanted heat. (even in winter, most of the waste heat is unwanted as the heater only taps a small amount of it)

Electricity can come from renewable resources that don't have this same byzantine supply chain. No drilling for oil, no oil tankers, no refineries no delivery trucks. Just electrons travelling back and forth across wires on the national grid into your 90% efficient car. (total efficiency from generation to wheels approx 60-70%)

If it's so much more efficient and so many less steps are involved why should you be paying more to fuel a car by electricity than Petrol or Diesel ? EV's are inhernently so much more efficient than combustion cars that it SHOULD be cheaper to run them if the price of fossil fuels and electricity is comparably priced.
And why are people still obsessing over the Ionity pricing structure? It’s their business model, if they’ve got it that wrong they’ll go out of business.
We can only hope.
 

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I wouldn't know as nearly every time I've needed to use a CPS rapid it has been occupied for inordinate amounts of time! :p I successfully used my first CPS rapid in over a year last weekend and incidentally the screen was completely non-functional, fortunately I know how to operate that old E-Volt model blindfolded...

In the year before that I've been using mostly Instavolt and once Engenie. I've tried several times to use CPS rapids in the last two months, every time (except for last weekend) all units were occupied by people who looked like they were about to pitch tents, so I've moved on a few miles to find something else.

A freeloader is someone who specifically seeks out free chargers over ones you pay for and goes out of their way to charge as much as possible when they don't actually need it all.

I take only what I reasonably need to reach my destination and move on, and given a choice between a double Instavolt site and a free CPS site the same distance away with one or two rapids (especially if only one) I will voluntarily choose the Instavolt site even though it's not free because my aim is to get me and the family home quickly with minimal fuss (no long waits queuing, no discovering the charger is broken) not to spend an hour queuing to save £2!

So no, I don't consider myself a freeloader when 9 times out of 10 I willingly choose Instavolt over CPS even when both are often available in the area. I know the Instavolt is going to work and isn't going to have people hogging it unnecessarily.
Yep, all my recent rapid charges have been paid for on the Engenie network as the free CPS units are permanently blocked by taxis/PHEVs, usual stuff etc, lol. Not bothered about the cost as it's only occasional like once a month.

As for the cost the economics of a rapid vs a petrol pump do not add up in my head. I can think of lots of likely costs/reasons but still leaves me wondering...
 

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Come now, don't encourage the likes of Ionity and their reduculous pricing. :) I'm reasonably happy paying the 35p / kWh Instavolt charge and I know they will work. I don't need to be paying £1 for that thanks.
No danger of that unless they start installing 22kw+ AC chargers :p

EV 'fuel' has to be cheaper than petrol or diesel otherwise there's no incentive for mass uptake of EVs and that means the UK will miss its emissions targets of 2035 or sooner if they can. In that sense yes, EV drivers today are doing the world a favour. A favour in 3 ways.
1) by reducing emissions though with so few EV drivers, the effect of this is minimal.
2) more importantly, helping develop the technology and thus make it cheaper for mass adoption.
3) iron out bugs in the EV charging infrastructure and thus make it easier for mass adoption.

For those reasons, it should be cheaper to drive an EV compared to fossil fuels for at least the next 5 years or so.

Agree eventually the government will add duty but that's 10 to 15 years away. If they add duty before then, it will again discourage EV take up and again mean they miss their emissions target. Once they have a captive audience as it were then agree they'll add duty or better still, create a new tax based on your odometer i.e tax by combination of how much you drive plus the fuel used.

Any increase in duty on electricity drawn away from home will itself trigger more interest in home grown electricity via solar panels or even wind if that tech gets cheap enough to add to homes whiich makes the break even point come sooner so long term that's acutally a good thing for the individual and the environment.
Because nobody in their right mind would buy a more expensive car (EV) which can't drive nearly as far and takes much longer to "fill up", if filling up is twice as expensive as filling a Diesel car. (As £1/kWh would be)

Zero incentive to buy an EV if its less convienient to use and more expensive. Difficult for the government to reach emissions targets if they price would be EV drivers out of the market...

The other issue is one of resources and efficiencies and the "value" of electricity - oil and the petrol and diesel that comes from it is a finite resouce which takes a lot of money and energy to drill, transport, refine and transport again to get to you as the consumer. You then put it in a vehicle which is around 25% efficient and throw the other 75% away as (mostly) unwanted heat. (even in winter, most of the waste heat is unwanted as the heater only taps a small amount of it)

Electricity can come from renewable resources that don't have this same byzantine supply chain. No drilling for oil, no oil tankers, no refineries no delivery trucks. Just electrons travelling back and forth across wires on the national grid into your 90% efficient car. (total efficiency from generation to wheels approx 60-70%)

If it's so much more efficient and so many less steps are involved why should you be paying more to fuel a car by electricity than Petrol or Diesel ? EV's are inhernently so much more efficient than combustion cars that it SHOULD be cheaper to run them if the price of fossil fuels and electricity is comparably priced.

We can only hope.
But then you have to offset the above with the fact it's a new technology, so you're paying both the "early adopter tax" and because there are currently no economies of scale.

A rapid charger isn't exactly cheap, so it's a very fine balancing act - charge too little and the machine will be obsolete/beyond the end of it's useful life before it has even paid for itself, vs charge too much and no one will use it - again it will never pay for itself, never mind actually generating a profit and becoming a viable business model.

I certainly don't want to see £1/kw, or even close to that - and I agree that ~30p is an ideal amount - but I'd rather pay a bit more when needed than have a situation where no one invests in the infrastructure because it's simply not economically viable.

EVs are going to continue to reduce in price as the technology improves, but ultimately it doesn't matter how cheap you make them if nobody is willing to buy them because they're only limited to journeys within their range due to the lack of charging infrastructure.
 

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The problem with free chargers is that they’re undervalued and overused, and with little incentive to maintain them.
I’m all for a free charge - I won’t look a gift horse in the mouth! - but I’ll happily switch them all to 40p if it makes them more reliable and less busy.
 

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EV 'fuel' has to be cheaper than petrol or diesel otherwise there's no incentive for mass uptake of EVs and that means the UK will miss its emissions targets of 2035 or sooner if they can. In that sense yes, EV drivers today are doing the world a favour. A favour in 3 ways.
1) by reducing emissions though with so few EV drivers, the effect of this is minimal.
2) more importantly, helping develop the technology and thus make it cheaper for mass adoption.
3) iron out bugs in the EV charging infrastructure and thus make it easier for mass adoption.

For those reasons, it should be cheaper to drive an EV compared to fossil fuels for at least the next 5 years or so.
I must be strange, but none of those things drove me to buy my 3rd EV in 6 years.

Grants to help towards the purchase of EVs and chargers are welcome carrots, but there’s also the stick approach. Look at how quickly the grants on EVs have diminished, and they’re only going one way.

Surely if we’re all engaged in some kind of pre mass adoption testing programme, the manufacturers should be subsidising the car purchase, not the U.K. taxpayer?

EVs need to stand on their own merit, maybe they don’t and it’s why we see time and time again the idea that they need to be cheaper in order to be acceptable.

This is where sometimes I think Tesla have it right, their offering is compelling in that all the cars are relative high performance, and they have a paid for charging network.

Even the U.K. Govt don’t have the muscle to pull everybody over to EVs, even Norway is ‘only’ about 30% EV sales annually.

They’re miles ahead of us and have done it not by mass subsidies but via punitive taxation on new petrol and diesel vehicles. Coming soon to the U.K. I’m sure.

As for the UKs emissions targets, we’re not ever going to hit those based on switching even all passenger cars to Electric, other more difficult areas will need to be tackled to.


Because nobody in their right mind would buy a more expensive car (EV) which can't drive nearly as far and takes much longer to "fill up"
And yet every day on here somebody comes on and says they’ve done just that.

We must have some solid faith that policies aren’t going to change soon. Maybe we are all out of our minds?!
 

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I don’t see at all why EV ‘fuel’ has to be cheaper than petrol or diesel.

And why are people still obsessing over the Ionity pricing structure? It’s their business model, if they’ve got it that wrong they’ll go out of business.

I don’t get this idea that we should somehow be entitled to no/low/cost price electricity from Rapids because we’re somehow doing the world a favour by driving an EV.

We made those choices, nobody forced an arm up my back, I drive an EV for all sorts of reasons, and running costs are pretty low down the list to be honest, I could buy a lot of petrol with the money I spent to buy an EV.

Let’s take a dose of reality as well, we are still very much in the early days of EV adoption, if you think the £1 per kWh charge is a grim fantasy, just wait until HM Gov get involved in and start putting duty on top of electricity drawn whilst away from home to ensure we ‘pay our fair share’.

Might not be for a few years, but we’re living in fantasy land if we think it isn’t coming someday.
Well, the big mistake was to introduce free charging.

Because it got all the tight arses on board. Now we can't get rid of them with their moaning that an EV costs more than an ICE.

I still see them, sitting at a free charger for three hours with their flask of weak lemon drink.
 

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I think that all rapid chargers should be chargeable - most are anyway apart from the sizeable number of ChargePlace Scotland ones.

Not sure charging for destination chargers is the answer to anyone’s problems however I’d be in favour if it would support increasing the number available.
 

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Well, the big mistake was to introduce free charging.

Because it got all the tight arses on board. Now we can't get rid of them with their moaning that an EV costs more than an ICE.

I still see them, sitting at a free charger for three hours with their flask of weak lemon drink.
Rubbish. It's an incentive to get people to buy an EV and help progress the tech. A moment ago you said Tesla had the right idea. Well they offered precisely that. Free charging for the early adopters. New car buyers now only get 1000 miles of free charging a year. In a few years time they'll get rid of that too. No way is free charging a mistake. It encourages people to get an EV. It's simple as that. I don't think anyone here is suggesting free rapid charging anyway. It's what's a reasonable price point that's the topic.
 

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Rubbish. It's an incentive to get people to buy an EV and help progress the tech. A moment ago you said Tesla had the right idea. Well they offered precisely that. Free charging for the early adopters. New car buyers now only get 1000 miles of free charging a year. In a few years time they'll get rid of that too. No way is free charging a mistake. It encourages people to get an EV. It's simple as that. I don't think anyone here is suggesting free rapid charging anyway. It's what's a reasonable price point that's the topic.
Where you there?
 

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Changing the topic very slightly, how do people feel about the connection charge? I've been having an argument with the CEO of a startup looking to install rapid chargers around the UK, charging at 36p kWh but 50p to £1 connection charge. His argument is that other companies do it. But it seems to me if there's a problem with a charger and you get partial charge and then have to reconnect, you'd have to pay your connection charge again.
I don't understand why there needs to be a connection charge but he claims that how much the company handling the payments charge him. I don't get why he can't use a simple debit card reader.
 
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