[Paul_Moxhay]

I was reading another forum just now and I saw this posted by @brian orr

On Speak EV the Waitrose Sustainability Manager appeared for a week and got vilified for signage and ICE-blocking - he left the forum!

I think this is highly disingenuous and what is more, probably incorrect. Perhaps he had made his points and didn't have anything else to say.

I post this here not to pick a fight with Brian, although that seems inevitable given his volatility, but to raise the issue of whether we should be making these kinds of criticisms of the people that are trying to help?

I am of a very mixed feeling over this. On the one hand I feel that they are doing their best, they are trying to help, they do not deserve criticism. On the other I feel that if they are in this arena then they must accept responsibility towards those that are relying on their networks, they should recognise that to be unreliable could cost drivers money, that if they put themselves out there as suppliers of a service then that service should be reliable and of a good standard.

Both points of view are valid IMO. It is a real and genuine dilemma.

Then I see comments like those of Brian and I can see that we all have a problem on our hands. Not only do we have to contend with networks that are unreliable, unavailable (through ICEing) and overpriced, but we have to fight those within our own ranks that are more interested in furthering their personal standing than in genuinely helping and contributing to the discussion.

 

[Paul_Moxhay]

A much more appropriate partner IMO for Waitrose, Asda and other self-contained shopping units (i.e. not on public streets) is Zero Carbon World.

I cannot think of any reason why Zero Carbon World units could not simply replace the POLAR units already installed except perhaps contractual.

ZeroNet stations are normally 13A socket and 32A type2 (could be higher) and they needs absolutely no maintenance, no RFID cards, they are dirt cheap to buy and install, need no mobile signal, are simple and easy to use... what is there not to like?

It is about time we threw out all this over-complicated waffle that POLAR introduces and went cheap, simple, easy.

@Quentin Clark Your news is of course good news but is there no way that Waitrose could become a market-leader in this respect and kick out POLAR and replace them with ZeroNet stations? I am certain that your replationship going forward with new EV drivers would be significantly better than with POLAR.

If you baulk at the cost then I wouldn't be concerned. I would imagine that that switching to ZeroNet might be the cheaper option in the long run what with reduced maintenance, reduced issues to resolve by store staff etc, plus potential increased EV traffic.

 

[Paul_Moxhay]

A grand per station was what I heard as well but that would be if there was no EV charging already installed... i.e. for new installs.

If Waitrose replaced POLAR with ZeroNet then all the cabling would already be in place. It would be a simple case of disconnecting the POLAR station and connecting the ZeroNet one. Probably an hour max I would guess... could be 15 mins!

 

[Paul_Moxhay]

to bring us back on topic

"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way" - Col Nathan R Jessup (aka Jack Nickolson)

What an arrogant statement that was... and he got his just reward in the end.

I think that statement and what happened in that film shows precisely why transparency and accountability is so important. We must be allowed to challenge what people do and what they say at all levels lest they say and do whatever they want in the name of doing it for our benefit.

Thanks for that quote Jon

 

[Paul_Moxhay]

I both agree and disagree with you @jontracey

If any individual or private company (as is Waitrose, POLAR, Ecotricity, Asda all are) wishes to do anything then providing it is legal we may not have the right to attack them. That I agree with. But that does not mean that we shouldn't complain and complain loudly if it is appropriate to do so.

I believe that any company that offers a service must do so with respect to their customers. They should also ensure that the service is fit for purpose. If either of these points are not met then although we have no right to complain I feel that it is often appropriate to do so. If we do not complain then there is no feedback and nothing will improve.

I strongly believe that the service offered by POLAR, and hence by Waitrose by association, is very much not fit for purpose and they are introducing the service without due respect for us, their customers. You talk of rights. I believe we have the moral right to complain and to do so loudly and with conviction over the POLAR issue and unfortunately that means that Waitrose, Asda etc are pulled into that discussion.

If we applied your approach to POLAR then we would not be complaining about the pricing. We would just accept it and thank them for making the effort to at least install a charging network where others haven't. Sorry but they didn't do it out of the goodness of their heart. They did it for one reason only - to make money. Nothing wrong with that. But should I be thanking them for doing it without respect and in a way that does no favours to EV transiton? No. I feel no obligation to thank them in any way whatsoever.

POLAR have every right in introduce whatever pricing they want and yet there are very few voices in support of them. Yet if we apply the same moral approach to the likes of Waitrose, Ecotricity et al then we are criticised for it.

However, I do agree that Waitrose is a slightly different matter because they have been drawn into using POLAR very early on in the discussion of public charging and IMO they jumped into bed with Chargemaster long before they properly understood the consequences of do so. As a result they are now tainted by association with POLAR even though I know that their corporate morals are polar opposites (see what I did there!!!). So no, it wouldn't be right to complain in the same way to Waitrose as we should be complaining to POLAR but the issue still need to be raised. A service is being offered that is not fit for purpose in many pepole's opinion. Waitrose may be tied to Chargemaster now and if they are then complaining is pointless as there may be nothing they can do. However, if they are not tied then we should be encouraging them to make the right choice now that they know that the corporate values of JLP and Chargemaster are not a good fit.

There is nothing I have said on this post or any other that I would not say to the people face to face. In fact, I have taken the argument to OLEV, CYC and Ecotricity by visiting them and having those face to face discussions and I am no less forthright face to face than I am on the internet. However, many do hide behind the internet in the way you describe but I am not sure I have seen anyone doing that in this discussion.

 

[Paul_Moxhay]

Your point then is that we shouldn't personalise our complaints or throw insults. I agree with you 100%.

But there is a different approach to making a complaint directly to a company and discussing that company on social media. The target audience is different and so the language used must also be different. I might use the first approach to the company directly because it is focused on the situation more from their perspective. On the other hand, on social media, although I wouldn't call them idiots (that is a personal insult and gets no one anywhere!), I might explain the consequences to the customer in ways that I wouldn't use to the company directly.

One is targeted to convince the company they should change their policy, the other is aimed more towards other customers discussing the facts and consequences of using the companies services. They are very different. My discussions here are not aimed at the company.

As for make it once and move on? If the complaint is small and of only minor impact then sure. Why would anyone bang on about small details. That is not reasonable. But for major and significant issues, as I believe this is, then it is worth making the complaint continuously and persistently until things change. It is all to do with the importance of the issue IMO.

Whether we are ignored or not or whether we are classified as fanatics etc is not in our control. If our argument is sound and reasonable and it is worth making then IMO we should continue to make it, albeit in reasonable tones, until things change.

 

[Paul_Moxhay]

People are always going to yell when you take away a free service, but the one thing they won't tell you is how much they'd be prepared to pay. No doubt we'll see some 'special offers' appear soon as they try to find the best rates.

I think there has been much discussion about what people are prepared to pay and from my interpretation of what people have said the common factor seems to be - no more than petrol/diesel as a starting point.