Both Octopus and MyEnergi have said Zappi integration is being worked on/coming. But absolutely no timelines, etas or promises unfortunately
Signing up to Octopus Intelligent without Ohme or compatible car?
Is it possible to sign up to Octopus Intelligent without an Ohme charger or compatible car? So, just using schedule charge between 11.30pm and 5.30am to get cheaper 10p rate?
I realise you’d have to state that you have an Ohme charger to sign up when you don’t have an EV on the compatible list, but other than that is there any other checks. If you never plan to use the smart charging capability, does it matter to Octopus?
Thanks, Steve
I realise you’d have to state that you have an Ohme charger to sign up when you don’t have an EV on the compatible list, but other than that is there any other checks. If you never plan to use the smart charging capability, does it matter to Octopus?
Thanks, Steve
21 - 40 of 84 Posts
There is the new Plug & Charge protocols
This would increase the complexity of a standard home charger
This therefore increases the price point of the charge poin
Kind of sums up how it is all going. Lots of complexity, lots of cost, great while it works but hard to maintain in production with all of the combinations of car and charge point.My Ohme charge point was happily getting the SOC from my Ioniq 5 (via Bluelink) until early December
Investing in a charge point is a risky business given the changing standards and the possibility of AC V2X in the near future.
It seems to me that the best way to handle this is to separate out the code that speaks to the car, to present a standardised interface. It's the sort of thing the free software community is good at. Then Octopus can concentrate on the proprietary bit of code that does the scheduling (deciding when each car should charge), and hobbyists can concentrate on how to make their car and/or chargepoint start and stop charging. Octopus would obviously have to maintain a reference implementation, but they've already got those.Kind of sums up how it is all going. Lots of complexity, lots of cost, great while it works but hard to maintain in production with all of the combinations of car and charge point.
I mentioned in a Leaf-specific thread that OVMS seems to be one possible way to control charging in a homogenous way - they've already put effort in to how to speak to the various car models.
I thought PnC was also DC only? Interesting to see its on the AC side too.There is the new Plug & Charge protocols, which can use CCS-like signalling for negotiating AC charging, but at present very few cars actually support it (VAG MEB platform is one), and you'd need the support from both the charge point and the vehicle, but at least that way, you could tell which one of your possibly compatible cars is physically connected to which one of your compatible charge points at potentially different locations. This would increase the complexity of a standard home charger by requiring something akin to a powerline modem in there, as well as running a full IP protocol stack on that interface (in addition to any local, or 'cloudy' networking it does). This therefore increases the price point of the charge point.
It's there to support AC bi-directional charging.I thought PnC was also DC only? Interesting to see its on the AC side too.
Not all AC charge points use the J.1172 style pilot signalling. Teslas do something weird for the destination charging, because Teslas know how to switch protocols to their own proprietary stuff, which seems to be loosely based on the CCS style signalling over powerline. Plug & Charge for AC works in a similar fashion.
Most cars these days already have the powerline modem hardware needed for CCS, so it makes sense to re-use it for AC signalling.
Of course, most AC charge points today don't have the powerline modem hardware installed to support it, they can only cope with the J.1172 style pilot signal.
Once it's there, and once vehicles support it by default, and once charging networks support it by default, then things should be a lot smoother.
An advange of Plug & Charge over other authentication methods is that it's digitally signed, the car provides certificate digitally signed by a mobility service provider that says that for a given expiry time, the driver is in good standing. That certificate is held offline by the car. A charge point can query it, and confirm (even if offline) that the signature was good at the time it was issued, and even if the car is offline, there's no connectivity to the charge point, the charge point can accurately record who's been charging (or discharging), so that when connectivity comes back, the pending transactions can upload.
Of course, I'm a bit bitter about it, because Peugeot decided not to implement Plug & Charge, and even if they did, and if the cars already on the road have the hardware. it would probably only be on cars leaving the factory. They can't even get around to releasing a simple dashboard software fix to display state of charge. They're claiming it's a hardware difference.
Part of being able to do bi-directional charging in public is the charging network knowing which vehicle's owner they should reimburse for energy removed from their battery pack, hence Plug & Charge will identify the contract owner through the vehicle.
Interesting insight thanks.
One thing, I'm sure its in the specs, but how does Plug and Charge play with multiple companies/apps offering different rates to the same charger? Say with my Enyaq (and V3.1 which has PnC), I rock up to Ionity (which supports PnC), I can charge using either my Skoda PowerPass (Elli), Octopus Electo-whatever or Bonnet. Is there scope to be able to pick which one would be used for PnC? At the moment, Skoda are saying their implementation will only work via PowerPass. AFAIK, and I've not seen it in the wild, you can install the cert from the SkodaConnect app which I assume is somehow linked to PowerPass. Would be ideal if you could plug in and it was like hey, you've signed up with these 3 providers, which one do you want to use, but I'm also wondering if they've missed that trick with it and you can only have one cert and whoever Ionity sign up with is who you're left with if you want to use PnC. PowerPass being VWG, its likely only to work in their little world rather than a real standard to open up operability like it should.
One thing, I'm sure its in the specs, but how does Plug and Charge play with multiple companies/apps offering different rates to the same charger? Say with my Enyaq (and V3.1 which has PnC), I rock up to Ionity (which supports PnC), I can charge using either my Skoda PowerPass (Elli), Octopus Electo-whatever or Bonnet. Is there scope to be able to pick which one would be used for PnC? At the moment, Skoda are saying their implementation will only work via PowerPass. AFAIK, and I've not seen it in the wild, you can install the cert from the SkodaConnect app which I assume is somehow linked to PowerPass. Would be ideal if you could plug in and it was like hey, you've signed up with these 3 providers, which one do you want to use, but I'm also wondering if they've missed that trick with it and you can only have one cert and whoever Ionity sign up with is who you're left with if you want to use PnC. PowerPass being VWG, its likely only to work in their little world rather than a real standard to open up operability like it should.
A car can have multiple contracts loaded, and you can choose which one to present, much like you can with Google Wallet or Apple Pay when using contactless payment.Interesting insight thanks.
One thing, I'm sure its in the specs, but how does Plug and Charge play with multiple companies/apps offering different rates to the same charger? Say with my Enyaq (and V3.1 which has PnC), I rock up to Ionity (which supports PnC), I can charge using either my Skoda PowerPass (Elli), Octopus Electo-whatever or Bonnet. Is there scope to be able to pick which one would be used for PnC? At the moment, Skoda are saying their implementation will only work via PowerPass. AFAIK, and I've not seen it in the wild, you can install the cert from the SkodaConnect app which I assume is somehow linked to PowerPass. Would be ideal if you could plug in and it was like hey, you've signed up with these 3 providers, which one do you want to use, but I'm also wondering if they've missed that trick with it and you can only have one cert and whoever Ionity sign up with is who you're left with if you want to use PnC. PowerPass being VWG, its likely only to work in their little world rather than a real standard to open up operability like it should.
Whether Skoda or the rest of VAG have implemented as such or have tried to put in some Tesla-style vendor lock-down is another matter.
Sorry, you can only buy your petrol via a SkodaFuel card, or such nonsense.
Powerpass is just a rebranding of Elli, so I bet you'll find that Elli will work.
In most cases, for things like card payments the choice of payment methods for most stuff is fairly irrelevant, just debit or credit - you have to pay for it sooner or later, but there's some nonsense like if I pay using my credit card, they'll sting me silly fees if ever I dare to pay in a currency other than sterling, whereas my current account debit card just charges the inter-bank buy rates for Euro or USD.
You must be able to get state of charge / level communication between car and charger to some degree surely ?Octopus want to do more than just turn the charging point on and off, they want to read the SoC (and possibly other stuff too).
They may very well want it but I thought this was primarily about balancing load / demand for car charging. So can be turned off / on as required.
This can be done easily with Pid Points which must be the most numerous charge points installed domestically at present in UK.
Not through the existing primitive protocol between car and (AC) chargepoint.You must be able to get state of charge / level communication between car and charger to some degree surely ?
I agree - while it would be nice to have, it turns out that the Ohme can get charge level from only some cars, so IO must be able to work without it. I'd be perfectly happy with being able to tell Octopus I want to charge for a total of 4 hours between now and noon on Saturday, for example. Though it's not much extra work for them if I ask for 40% to be added, once they know that my car is X kWh and my chargepoint is Y kW (taking charging losses into account). Except when I'm doing a 100% charge for balancing, which can be very slow. But that can just be done using the 6-hour timed slot.They may very well want it but I thought this was primarily about balancing load / demand for car charging. So can be turned off / on as required.
Must do as there are people on the forum with Ohme/original MG ZS. So on the back of that my Leaf is actually an MG ZS on the Ohme, lol. Carwings integration does my head in hence running it dumb.Not through the existing primitive protocol between car and (AC) chargepoint.
I agree - while it would be nice to have, it turns out that the Ohme can get charge level from only some cars, so IO must be able to work without it. I'd be perfectly happy with being able to tell Octopus I want to charge for a total of 4 hours between now and noon on Saturday, for example. Though it's not much extra work for them if I ask for 40% to be added, once they know that my car is X kWh and my chargepoint is Y kW (taking charging losses into account). Except when I'm doing a 100% charge for balancing, which can be very slow. But that can just be done using the 6-hour timed slot.
Hmm - one downside I can think of... if IO cannot monitor charge level on car, then it can only know that it turned the chargepoint on for a total of 4 hours. It wouldn't know whether the car was actually plugged in and taking charge. So if I happened to use the car just when IO decided to charge, I'd miss out.Must do as there are people on the forum with Ohme/original MG ZS. So on the back of that my Leaf is actually an MG ZS on the Ohme, lol. Carwings integration does my head in hence running it dumb.
But I believe smart chargepoints are required to monitor the energy supplied to the car. So in addition to being able to turn chargepoint on and off, I guess IO would ideally also want feedback on power delivered to the car from the chargepoint, even if they can't get it from the car.
But of course, after the unplanned journey I can just update my IO request if necessary, to ask for an additional 30 minutes, for example.
IO monitors car charge level, not by the charger talking to their systems, but by the car data that is shared with the owners phone app, also being shared with octopus. You agree this and enter your phone app user ID and password as part of the sign up. For the charger to read data you need a CCS, Tesla or Chademo connection, not a type 2. That’s why rapid chargers can display the battery level.
I spoke with octopus today. I have a full phat etron 55, now called the Q8. As octopus are struggling to find the car and read the data from the car (they use a third party software company called enode to get the data from Audi) I can’t get OI just now. Audi changed something in their software a couple of weeks ago and it’s causing problem. So in the meantime I’ll be using go. 4 hours charging will be enough most of the time.
I spoke with octopus today. I have a full phat etron 55, now called the Q8. As octopus are struggling to find the car and read the data from the car (they use a third party software company called enode to get the data from Audi) I can’t get OI just now. Audi changed something in their software a couple of weeks ago and it’s causing problem. So in the meantime I’ll be using go. 4 hours charging will be enough most of the time.
Yeah, that's one way they do it. But with an Ohme charger, it can operate without being able to speak to the car at all.IO monitors car charge level, not by the charger talking to their systems, but by the car data that is shared with the owners phone app, also being shared with octopus.
Only because Ohme do the same trick of talking to the car’s manufacturer’s back-end API to get the data. The Ohme-to-car connection is still just a dumb type 2.Yeah, that's one way they do it. But with an Ohme charger, it can operate without being able to speak to the car at all.
Ohme are able to speak to some cars via the manufactuer's back end. For others, it still works with IO, but you don't get the charge level feedback.Only because Ohme do the same trick of talking to the car’s manufacturer’s back-end API to get the data. The Ohme-to-car connection is still just a dumb type 2.
Building on what you are saying... Do you only get extra off-peak charge slots if Octopus can see your SOC? CheersOhme are able to speak to some cars via the manufactuer's back end. For others, it still works with IO, but you don't get the charge level feedback.
My understanding is for cars that cant get the SoC, the app offers a number of kWh you want to put in (bit like Zappi on boost). So it will assume you get say 7kW and work out how many half hour slots you will need and go from there. So you could well get extra slots anyway if it thinks you need a lot of charge.
I assume there's some constraint to prevent abuse of the system? Eg can I tell it at 4pm that I want 28kWh by 8pm and get peak-time energy at cheap rate ?My understanding is for cars that cant get the SoC, the app offers a number of kWh you want to put in (bit like Zappi on boost). So it will assume you get say 7kW and work out how many half hour slots you will need and go from there. So you could well get extra slots anyway if it thinks you need a lot of charge.
Don't think they ever guarantee that if you tell it that you will get cheap rate. It works the same as telling them when you need X% by, as you can do that if they know the SoC too. It only tries to schedule it as best it can is my understanding so if you tell them you need so much charge, it will probably just say its not possible. Hopefully someone with it can chip in.I assume there's some constraint to prevent abuse of the system? Eg can I tell it at 4pm that I want 28kWh by 8pm and get peak-time energy at cheap rate ?
That is indeed a loophole that has been discovered and abused by some people - but, judging by some comments on the Octopus forum, the fightback is starting...I assume there's some constraint to prevent abuse of the system? Eg can I tell it at 4pm that I want 28kWh by 8pm and get peak-time energy at cheap rate ?
21 - 40 of 84 Posts
Speak EV - Electric Car Forums
A community for enthusiasts of all makes and models of EV from BMW to Tesla, Renault, Nissan, Mitsubishi and more. Join the electrifying discussion today!
Full Forum Listing
Recommended Communities
