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Do you think the Minister was right, are Rapids really meant as rare/emergency choice only?

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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)

The questions posed here are intended as an informal range loosely connected to the main question posed above regards the Ministers recent comments specifically at Rapid Chargers. As such this is going to more focused on the vehicles that use Rapid chargers via Chademo or CCS connectors such as Leaf, Zoe, i3 and e-Up! Etc. Range extenders such as the Volt or Ampera can of course answer if they so wish but the question re Type 2 is more geared to your profile but you may still have an opinion on the other questions asked. While these are intended to get a loose feeling in the aftermath of the Ministers comments it may well help direct a more focussed study in general EV use in the future. While posted by the EVDA it is not intended for purely EVDA members based on SpeakEV.
Feel free to ask further questions if you so feel the need.

So how do EV drivers want to pay for their public charging options? By Time or Kwh?


Department of Transport Minister, Baroness Kramer seems to have stirred up a hornets nest saying Rapid chargers are meant for limited/emergency use only, hence why Chargemaster Plc have to charge (upto)so much at £7.50p Is this right?

Please could you take a few moments to answer these few questions to see if we can get to a common consensus?

Q1) So how do EV drivers want to pay for their Rapid public charging options? By Time or Kwh?
A) By Kwh? If so, how much do you feel is reasonable cost per Kwh?
B) By 30mins + minutes part thereof? If so, how much do you feel is reasonable?


Q2) How do EV drivers want to pay via Type 2 16/30amp posts public charging options? By Time or Kwh?

A) By Kwh? If so, how much do you feel is a reasonable cost per Kwh?
B) By Time? Say by 1hour + minutes part thereof? If so, how much do you feel is reasonable?

Q3) Are the current Leaf sized BEV's really only designed for local ranges or Longer ranges?
A) Yes current BEV's are only really useable for local day to day trips.
B) No! I use my Leaf daily and often into 3 figure mileage levels!


So whats everyones thoughts, do we need a Rapid network or are we fine charging at home at night?
Do you feel the current range of BEV's should be considered only as local range cars rather than cars perfectly able to do long journeys if the ev owner feels the need?

I look forward to you responses!

A F-G
 

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Andrew.

You have made the questions very Leafy.;)
If you want all to take part ie I drive a Volt but want to go full BEV then could you change them slightly or I cant take part.
 

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A, A 40p absolutely the maximum preferably less, don't have a leaf but would guess B.
 

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I think you're being too specific, perhaps to mould the answers to fit, and your poll is not the same as the questions in the post, which I think isn't helpful.

If you want more quick responses to get an overview of opinion then may I suggest a more simple poll with an option to explain your choices below.

For more detailed insight something like a survey monkey or Google poll to your members may be more appropriate and insightful?
 

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"B) No! I use my Leaf daily and often into 3 figure mileage levels!"

That's me (although this week I've been using my Street Triple R for commuting as it's sunny & dry and I'm in a hurry).

I do 90 miles/day three times a week, and 105 miles / day twice (using the L2 charger in work). Having RCs nearby helps with peice of mind.

Without the availability of the Ecotricity rapids I wouldn't have been able to get down to Dorset to see the missus on the weekend - 110 miles one way.

I needed two rapid charges on Saturday afternoon:
1 x splash & dash of less than 5 mins to get me to Magor (I was on 19% and it was marginal due to headwind and rain)
1 x top up from 10% to 87% at magor

and on return:
1 x charge to 75% at magor after arriving with 4%!

Would I have been happy with being charged 7.50 for the splash and dash charge? No.

As documented, I've successfully completed quite a few 200 mile+ journeys in my Leaf with no issues. Guess I've been lucky!
 

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I don't use Rapids at all - not only were the questions Leafy, they're inappropriate for EV drivers who can only accept a Standard or Fast charge. As to charging, as the law prevents charging by kWh (firms are not permitted to retail electricity withou a licence) which is why they imposed a service charge. It is, however the fairest way of charging.

Clearly you would expect the costs to be similar to what you would pay at home, unless (like ASDA et al) se a benefit in offering it for free.
 

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I don't use Rapids at all - not only were the questions Leafy, they're inappropriate for EV drivers who can only accept a Standard or Fast charge. As to charging, as the law prevents charging by kWh (firms are not permitted to retail electricity withou a licence) which is why they imposed a service charge. It is, however the fairest way of charging.

Clearly you would expect the costs to be similar to what you would pay at home, unless (like ASDA et al) se a benefit in offering it for free.
Actually, this is not true. Fees for EV charging are explicitly excluded from the regulations:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/ofgem-publications/86573/mrpdecision.pdf
 

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On my phone so can't easily give you the reference, but olev recently confirmed that electric car charging is exempt from the rules preventing charging by kWh.
 
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I don't use Rapids at all - not only were the questions Leafy, they're inappropriate for EV drivers who can only accept a Standard or Fast charge. As to charging, as the law prevents charging by kWh (firms are not permitted to retail electricity withou a licence) which is why they imposed a service charge. It is, however the fairest way of charging.

Clearly you would expect the costs to be similar to what you would pay at home, unless (like ASDA et al) se a benefit in offering it for free.
That law changed recently. Chargemaster are now quite entitled to charge by kWh if they want to.
 

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Thanks for the clarification, however as this changed barely 8 weeks ago I can be forgiven. It appears this has also not been on Chargemaster's radar, as they studiously avoid billing by KWh, and indeed, their Polar Instant app explicitly refuse to state consumption.
 

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Q1) C - a combination of per kWh and connected-time based to prevent abuse.
Q2) C
Q3) A - you can use the rapid charge network when you need to, but the pain isn't something anyone other than an early adopter is going to do on a regular basis.

70-80 mile range EVs are not suitable for frequent long distance travel.
 

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Thanks for the clarification, however as this changed barely 8 weeks ago I can be forgiven. It appears this has also not been on Chargemaster's radar, as they studiously avoid billing by KWh, and indeed, their Polar Instant app explicitly refuse to state consumption.
I think we can consider you forgiven :)
 
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1. A) - say at 25-30p per KwH
2. Neither - I would not want to use public slow charging unless it was offered free as part of another service e.g. hotel stay, supermarket etc.
3. Occasional long journey use for me - mainly as I generally need a larger family car for long journies
 

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My view on this for the current situation is slow charging at car parks for shops, offices etc (16 / 32 amp) and rapid charging for "en-route" is just about the ideal mix for MOST I would say.

The slow charging should be free as an incentive to spend time and money at your destination, or part of the parking fee (imagine £1 an hour to park, but £1.20 an hour to park and charge) and the rapids should have a fair, per kWh charge which reflects the speed and convenience. I've said before something like 30p/40p per kWh would seem fair based on current rates.

But then you could and should perhaps factor in easier methods, like an annual fee with free charging. That way those who use a lot will benefit, but those who rarely use would compensate for those using a lot, a bit like they do with broadband these days.

I remember you used to have to pay for time connected (yes I'm that old), and then more recently limited/restricted but then over time many have realised that setting a competitive "all you can eat" rate means some will pig-out, some will merely snack, and the figures sort themselves out in the long run.


This all assumes however that manufacturers don't wise up to a Tesla-like model where they supply car and infrastructure and manage to find a good, second income stream while making life easier for their owners in one fell swoop.
 

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But they are suitable for infrequent long distance travel (which I believe is what most people need) if there was a comprehensive, reliable and reasonably priced rapid charging network in place (which is slowly what is happening)

70-80 mile range EVs are not suitable for frequent long distance travel.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Andrew.

You have made the questions very Leafy.;)
If you want all to take part ie I drive a Volt but want to go full BEV then could you change them slightly or I cant take part.
Hi Andy G,
This is directly tied the recent GOV Ministers comments saying Rapid charge points are only there for emergency or rare use only and directed to current BEV owners and their actual experiences with their usage patterns with Rapid Chargers.

As such the main question is not geared towards the volt, but there is a question in addition which would cover your usage at type 2 public charge points which would allow you to take part if you so wanted to.

While I mention the Leaf, I do say Leaf Sized BEV's just to generalise, this by its very nature encapsulates the Leaf, Zoe, BMW, e-Up! Etc.

I am sure in due course when the dust has settled over this specific issue there will be other polls geared towards issues directed at the Volt, Ampera vehicle types.

I do hope this explains the reasonings why my questions are directed at Rapids etc.
A F-G
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I think you're being too specific, perhaps to mould the answers to fit, and your poll is not the same as the questions in the post, which I think isn't helpful.

If you want more quick responses to get an overview of opinion then may I suggest a more simple poll with an option to explain your choices below.

For more detailed insight something like a survey monkey or Google poll to your members may be more appropriate and insightful?
The poll is targeted to the very specific Q re Ministers comment, the others are purely connected in a lesser extent. It is not intend as a in-depth formal poll at EVDA members but just a quick feeler poll, also while it would be nice to have all SpeakEV members as full members of the EVDA I do understand they are not but they all have a voice equally. Im sure in time a bigger formal focussed survey will arrive for EVDA membership and none membership covering many different aspects of EV ownership.
A F-G
 

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My main point I guess is your simple, minister-directed poll questions are not the same as your post questions. You may not get the responses, or volume of responses that will be most helpful to you.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I don't use Rapids at all - not only were the questions Leafy, they're inappropriate for EV drivers who can only accept a Standard or Fast charge. As to charging, as the law prevents charging by kWh (firms are not permitted to retail electricity withou a licence) which is why they imposed a service charge. It is, however the fairest way of charging.

Clearly you would expect the costs to be similar to what you would pay at home, unless (like ASDA et al) se a benefit in offering it for free.
There was a direct correlation to the direction of the main question and to a lesser extent the others as a direct result of recent events when a Gov minister made comments specifically at Rapid use.
A F-G
 
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