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Kona64
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So there's a few high end charge points who have SuperRapid chargers
Ionity, BP Pulse, Shell etc

My concern is recently I have gone to such points and expected a high charge rate, and not got.
Including ones where previously I got 74kw and yesterday 41 -- both times similar SOC, and no other user.

If I had a supermarket home delivery, ordered+paid for a Finest Upscale Product, but got their basic-mega-lowpriced item instead , I'd be fuming

But there seems no recompense when going to a super rapid ---- I have to take my chance, and I can only see what I will actually get in charge-rate after I've started the charge ---- really annoying if there's a service charge min fee thing too.

I am wondering if it's too complicated for a charging model that says
If the drinking is at over 50kw we'll charge a 25% cost surcharge , if your car takes over a 100kw rate from us 50% surcharge etc.
Then, you get stung for what you actually got on that day.
If the machine gave you 77kw yesterday but only 45 today (for the same SOC) your blood pressure is still annoyed, but the cost you paid is proportional.

At the moment it's like not to bother going to a 150kw charger as the chances of me getting the premium benefit are less than 50%. #FirstWorldProblems I know but if I had a car that could drink significantly fast ( Tesla , Ioniq5, eTron etc etc) I would be more annoyed about this.
I've taken to deeply pre reading ZapMap / Plugshare experiences, and based on them, thinking Mhhhhhhh not worth being stung I'll just go to a "50kw" point and sit there longer or have an extra journey stop.
 

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Ioniq 38kwh 2020
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It's a bit like broadband though I suppose, as in "up to" a certain speed. There are so many factors to affect charge rates.
Apart from pulse (and Shell?) though, none of the other charge networks have differing rates based on the speed of the charger though, do they?
 

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Nissan Leaf 24 Tekna '64 reg
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This is why we need multiple speeds of rapid chargers at each charging hub. 350kW, 150kW, 50kW and 7kW AC.

Look at it another way. Did the charge provider put in the investment to provide you the capability to charge at 150 kW? They did, so you have to pay that price to use that service. Your car wasn't able to take advantage of it so tough luck.

Eg. I order online for next-day express delivery. But I only need the item 3 days later. Do I get to pay online retailer less money because my personal reasons?
 

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Renault Zoe ZE50 GT-Line Rapid Charge
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This is why we need multiple speeds of rapid chargers at each charging hub. 350kW, 150kW, 50kW and 7kW AC.

Look at it another way. Did the charge provider put in the investment to provide you the capability to charge at 150 kW? They did, so you have to pay that price to use that service. Your car wasn't able to take advantage of it so tough luck.

Eg. I order online for next-day express delivery. But I only need the item 3 days later. Do I get to pay online retailer less money because my personal reasons?
Make that 22kW AC. That way, any car using it will charge at the max rate it can take.
 

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You seem to be placing the blame with the charger, when it (at least potentially/hypothetically) might have been the car requesting reduced power.

If it was the car, then there’s an argument that if someone uses an ultra rapid charger with a car that is only able to pull, say, 41kW (maybe because the battery is at not at the necessary temperature for the car’s battery management system to demand a higher power output from the charger), then that person should actually be charged more (particularly in peak times), as they are reducing the potential throughout of the charger. As EV’s become more popular, as cars with better charging curves become more common, and as the down time of chargers continues to reduce, the potential turnover generated by a high power charger is reduced if cars frequently use it when their capability is far below that of the charger.

I’m not saying this should happen — just offering a counter view.
 

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Kona64
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
My main gripe is if I go to a point 5 times, and twice I get a fab rate, but three times I get 39-44.
It's random and I've no idea before I commit to pay what I will get.

With home broadband yes, up to, but the experience tends to be consistent, and if you're upgrading it tends to be better than you had before.

I don't mind paying a premium , quite get @wyx087 point they have put "higher quality kit in" but I would like to get that premium product 4-5 times out of 5, not 3 or less.
It just seems to be flakey what you get and so hard to work out " who is at fault "

A warning such as.
" local conditions mean this charge may be at a reduced rate " ie inbound supply is low, loads of others charging
" your vehicle SOC means charging will be at a throttled level " ie you're over 80%
" your vehicle battery is not currently able to accept maximum rate charging " ie its temp or something.
Then you can decide to proceed, or not.
If you turn up and 3 of the 6 bays are in already use, would the average EV driver realise it's going to hit point (1) ?
If you plug in to a premium charge point at 80% it really is your own fault
Point (3) is the harder one for the average driver to know ( we're not all Bjorn gadget-say loaded ! )

Not sure if the tech is there for the charge unit to check these things ( SOC % is )
ie Car type X throttles at 60% soc, but this mfg doesn't until 95. etc etc
 
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Kona64
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
PS loving the replies - the point of a good forum like SpeakEV is you do get other opinions, views, and it's good to see other sides or have your self importance knocked a bit into shape.
 

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I don't have a car that will charge at anything like those rates. However, it seems to me to be not worth paying a premium for a 150kw charger over a 50kw one if your car will max out at 77kw. Even more silly, if the machine often struggles to provide 41kw, surely? :)
 

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Sometimes it is the charger:

141854


Sometimes it is the car:

I agree that cars should display to the driver information on the currently possible maximum charging speed, and chargers should clearly indicate at the unit, and on in-car displays, if there are power restrictions.

In the Ionity example above, they go onto free vend when power is limited.
 

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Was just looking at this graph: Hyundai KONA Electric Charges At Up To 72 kW

It looks like the Kona on 175kw only charges much faster than a 50kw below 60%. If you start from say 20%, that means you'll flll that 40% in 22 minutes on a 175kw, or 34 minutes on a 50kw. If your 60% charge costs you £11.52 on 50kw, but £16.12 on 175 kw, you are paying £4.60 to save 12 minutes! £23 per hour! :)
 

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Chart from one of Bjørn’s video testing the 64kWH Soul (so broadly the same as the 64kWh Kona and eNiro), and comparing charging on a 50kW charger vs a 100kW charger.
141873
 

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Kona64
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
wow really useful replys , thank you— solidifying my view to ...They are not really worth it for a Kona driver
 

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90% of the time, DC charging rate will be determined by the car, specifically the battery SoC and temperature, rather than the charger maximum rate. Chargers can operate at reduced power, for example Tesla Superchargers are installed in pairs usually, and each pair share a common supply, so if both Superchargers in a pair are in use the maximum available to each car will be reduced.

The maximum charge rate quoted by car manufacturers is often very much a very short duration peak that can only be achieved under a certain, limited, set of circumstances. For example, a couple of weeks ago I plugged my supposedly 250kW max charge rate Model 3 LR into an equally capable Supercharger. I got about 50 kW out of it, not because the Supercharger supply was being shared, or because either my car or the Supercharger had a fault, but simple because the battery pack was a bit cold. I'd decided to charge only a few minutes before arriving at the charger, so there hadn't been enough time to precondition the battery (takes around 20 minutes or more).

Teslas probably have higher charge rates than most EVs, but these graphs show just how variable they can be, depending on the actual battery pack conditions: V3 Supercharging Profiles for Model 3

Other EVs are broadly similar in terms of rates varying with battery temperature, SoC etc.
 

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Bare in mind, that’s also pretty much best case for the Kona on a high power charger, as the battery will only draw the max speed once it’s >25°C, which is difficult to achieve in colder weather.

If you are planning to use a high power charger and can’t be confident just based on the season / weather that the battery will reach 25°C soon after plugging in, then (because Hyundai don’t make this information available on the screens) you ideally need to use an OBD scanner to see the battery temperature before choosing whether to bother with a costlier charger, so that you can see how close you are to the 25°C threshold.

I do think there can be times though when it’s worth the £10 or so extra per charge to use an Ionity over, say, a 50kW Instavolt. If you’re on a summer road trip using mostly motorways and have the option of using Ionity, and will likely get the max speed, then you stand to save 15 minutes of charging time, per charge. Then, you also need to add on any additional time it may take to divert to and from an Instavolt / Osprey etc off the motorway. And you may also place some value on the fact that ultra rapid locations such as Ionity are often more likely to have multiple units, and be in locations with toilets, several food options etc.
 

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Nissan Leaf 24 Tekna '64 reg
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It just seems to be flakey what you get and so hard to work out " who is at fault "

A warning such as.
" local conditions mean this charge may be at a reduced rate " ie inbound supply is low, loads of others charging
" your vehicle SOC means charging will be at a throttled level " ie you're over 80%
" your vehicle battery is not currently able to accept maximum rate charging " ie its temp or something.
Then you can decide to proceed, or not.
If you turn up and 3 of the 6 bays are in already use, would the average EV driver realise it's going to hit point (1) ?
If you plug in to a premium charge point at 80% it really is your own fault
Point (3) is the harder one for the average driver to know ( we're not all Bjorn gadget-say loaded ! )
Great idea.

As an engineer, I personally think the more information presented the better. Let the user decide whether to use the charge point and most importantly inform the user on cause of slow charging. EV charging is vastly different to pumping liquid fuel, this complexity and limitations shouldn't be masked from the end user, who is ultimately affected by these system limitations.
 

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I try to seek out faster chargers if I can, don’t see the point in a peak 100kW rate if I can’t use it.

I wouldn’t pay extra to do so over a 50kW charger though, especially if I wasn’t doing a long charge, just a splash and dash so not much time saving.

I suppose like many EV drivers, my priorities around a charger are;

1. Working
2. Location
3. Speed
 

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Kona64
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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
[QUOTE="Bill N, post: 2977868, member: 38145"

If you are planning to use a high power charger and can’t be confident just based on the season / weather that the battery will reach 25°C soon after plugging in, then (because Hyundai don’t make this information available on the screens) you ideally need to use an OBD scanner to see the battery temperature before choosing whether to bother with a costlier charger, so that you can see how close you are to the 25°C threshold.

[/QUOTE]

Is there a good way to get the battery to that temp ?
I had thought at least 10-15mins at 60-70mph constant would have done it, but I think having read elsewhere, it doesn't actually work like that. The battery isn't being stressed enough and the air temp this time of year is not helping.

The 150kw I tend to use is at the end of a 10mile dual carriageway stretch - and in fact a lot of super rapids I guess would be used by people who'd spent the last hour at a cruise.
I wondered about winter mode in the Kona but it would take a happy passenger to be asked to spend 5mins stabbing menus on my behalf to find + enable it (vs a dashboard button).

This is all interesting stuff !
 

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From what I understand, if the ambient temperature is not on your side, it’s basically impossible in the UK to do it when driving normally.

You either need to be doing a constant high speed — well above the UK motorway speed limit, or you’d need to "yo-yo drive" (hard accelerate, then hard regen, then hard accelerate and so on) for an indeterminate length of time.

Winter mode almost always won’t help in the most parts of the UK as it is only really intended to assist in very low temps, which we rarely see.
 

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Essentially, I think that unless the ambient temp is very mild (I’m not sure exactly in what range) then the way to go is to just use any rapid in the first charge of a long journey, and then aim to drive briskly to maintain the heat in the battery gained through that first charge, and then to use ultra rapids for subsequent charges where you stand a better chance of seeing 70+kW.
 
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