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Discussion Starter #1
I understand all the concern on here - but what *exactly* would you want the warranty to say?

To be fair you are going to need to include the temperature ranges the car was kept at, how hard it was driven, how it was charged every time, how long it can be sat at any given state of charge, how many miles it's done and how old it is, including how long it sat before purchase.

Is it fair to warranty a car in a hot climate to the same level as one in a temperate climate?

This is a mine field. Nissan opted to pick the lowest possible, which is bad for people who look after their cars in a temperate climate.

Do people really believe that the consumer will accept all these terms and conditions on a warranty? This is like trying to warranty a set of tyres for a given range.
 

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I understand all the concern here - but what *exactly* would you want the warranty to say?

To be fair you are going to need to include the temperature ranges the car was kept at, how hard it was driven, how it was charged every time, how long it can be sat at any given state of charge, how many miles it's done and how old it is, including how long it sat before purchase.

Is it fair to warranty a car in a hot climate to the same level as one in a temperate climate?

This is a mine field. Nissan opted to pick the lowest possible, which is bad for people who look after their cars in a temperate climate.

Do people really believe that the consumer will accept all these terms and conditions on a warranty? This is like trying to warranty a set of tyres for a given range.
I, for one, would like something that at least codifies an expected degradation during the warranty period.

For the Model S, it's an eight year warranty, so, give acceptable drop in terms of each year or X miles of service REGARDLESS of operating condition(if they want to be granular) If the warranty is Infinite, then let's not exclude that.

As for the Roadster, codify the 2006 blog post that touted 30% after five years (or whatever the specs were) AND, more importantly, let purchasers under the Certified Pre-Owned program know that their "better than new" 37,000 mile and 37 month warranty includes that. However, if they don't do that, unfortunately those are the terms that we bought our cars under and it's our responsibility to have read and reacted to the exclusions at that time.

Let them spell it out, and let the market decide whether this is fair or unfair for each purchaser. As it is, I got blinded by the marketing of the coverage rather than actually understand all the coverage. I'm ticked off that I got bamboozled, but, at the end of the day, I still would have bought both Teslas. There is no comparison, and if paying more later happens, then I can always sell it and pick something else up.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
For the Model S, it's an eight year warranty, so, give acceptable drop in terms of each year or X miles of service REGARDLESS of operating condition(if they want to be granular) If the warranty is Infinite, then let's not exclude that.
Any warranty that is regardless of operating condition is going to be completely useless to the vast majority of people. The end result is that every manufacturer will do like GM - you'll pay for, and carry around, battery that you are not allowed to use, however desperate you are. The manufacturer will want to protect themselves and will do so at your inconvenience.

This reminds me a lot of SLAs in the server hosting world. I actively seek out hosting companies that are honest and open about their network architecture rather than hiding behind an SLA. An SLA is all well and good, but it's just a piece of paper. I'm much happier if I can make my own judgement on the technologies used, because at the end of it an SLA or warranty is just about finance - not how useful or reliable the product actually is.
 

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Often warranties differ from country to country and region to region, Tesla could go the same route as Nissan have done with a variance clearly stated that it would be percentage wise more generous to cars located in and operated in more temperate climates, it would certainly be a lot better that what they have now and the potential massive can of worms that has just opened, I am sure Tesla will address this for Model S owners, not so sure about the roadster owners though…sigh.
 

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Any warranty that is regardless of operating condition is going to be completely useless to the vast majority of people. The end result is that every manufacturer will do like GM - you'll pay for, and carry around, battery that you are not allowed to use, however desperate you are. The manufacturer will want to protect themselves and will do so at your inconvenience.

This reminds me a lot of SLAs in the server hosting world. I actively seek out hosting companies that are honest and open about their network architecture rather than hiding behind an SLA. An SLA is all well and good, but it's just a piece of paper. I'm much happier if I can make my own judgement on the technologies used, because at the end of it an SLA or warranty is just about finance - not how useful or reliable the product actually is.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some sort of line-in-the-sand for battery degradation.
Nissan have set it at 70% (or is it 69%), Renault (apparently) at 75%. Even if the figure is low (say, 50%) it's still something. Having no figure at all isn't, I think, terribly reasonable, and I think it's somewhat disingenuous of Tesla to tout their unlimited battery warranty if that warranty only covers total battery failure - and I think "the man in the street" would feel the same.

Imagine buying a car that gives 50mpg (let's ignore, for the moment, that the manuacturer might claim 80mpg). For two years you regularly get around that figure in daily, normal (for you) use. Suddenly, after 2 years/30000 miles, that MPG figure begins to drop until, at the end of the third year you can never acheive that, the best you can get is 35mpg (70% of the original MPG). Is that reasonable? Or do you think you would be pounding on the dealership's door asking for some sort of explanation?
 
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Discussion Starter #6
Imagine buying a car that gives 50mpg (let's ignore, for the moment, that the manuacturer might claim 80mpg). For two years you regularly get around that figure in daily, normal (for you) use. Suddenly, after 2 years/30000 miles, that MPG figure begins to drop until, at the end of the third year you can never acheive that, the best you can get is 35mpg (70% of the original MPG). Is that reasonable? Or do you think you would be pounding on the dealership's door asking for some sort of explanation?
Ok, where in my warranty does it say what the guaranteed MPG is for an ICE car? I've never seen that.

Your numbers are also interesting - the car in question here is nowhere near any of your trigger points. So we are beating up a company that hasn't yet actually refused to honour what people think is reasonable.

Nissan stepped in because they had a real problem in one region. Have Tesla drivers somewhere had an equally bad experience that has been ignored?
 

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If the Nissan capacity warranty is anything to go by, I don't think it is of much value in the UK where battery degredation is likely to be well below the warranty threshold. The same is likely with any degredation Tesla may be willing to commit to.

Nice to have but not a massive issue unlike in the hot US states where the climate has led to faster than expected degredation.

Also, does BMW offer any degredation warranty on their i series cars (which I think have battery temperature management)?
 

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I agree that some level of degredation should be specified - however if it is likely to be set at a level for which your car would not qualify for a battery replacement - would you be Ok with that?
This isn't really about me and my car... Tesla need a degradation warranty to cover Model S today and future products like the Model X and "400" mile Roadster battery.

If my car isn't covered by any new warranty then I'd be disappointed for all the existing Roadster owners but not surprised given our cars are 'old'.
 

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If the Nissan capacity warranty is anything to go by, I don't think it is of much value in the UK where battery degredation is likely to be well below the warranty threshold. The same is likely with any degredation Tesla may be willing to commit to.

Nice to have but not a massive issue unlike in the hot US states where the climate has led to faster than expected degredation.

Also, does BMW offer any degredation warranty on their i series cars (which I think have battery temperature management)?
With regards to BMW i cars I'm not sure now. I was told by my local dealership that there is no specific capacity warranty but the warranty lasts for 7 years...
Some on this forum seem to think there is a capacity warranty so maybe he was not aware of this or others have presumed something.
I think regardless of whether individuals feel this is or isn't worth much, for the wider public it can only help if there are expectations set for a 'worst case scenario' capacity warranty.
As I said previously, having spent a lot of time at automotive proving grounds over the past few years, the amount of times I have seen Leaf's being driven and charging solely using CHadEMO surely suggests that they have acquired this data to know how quickly the cells can deteriorate.

Remember to those not concerned about this, as with any warranty, it is there to protect people who have cars malfunction on them. The car shouldn't break, but when they do thats what warranties are there fore to give peace of mind. This is surely the same with battery degradation, with the figures that I would be happy to see from the manufacturers, I do not expect many people to fall under the 'eligible for replacement' banner but for those who do, it means a heck of a lot. Its not there for people who just use the car a lot, the figures should be below that level of degradation. It should be there to save people from sheets of batteries malfunctioning, or the thermal management system malfunctioning and cooking cells or a whole host of other potential, although perhaps very unlikely, problems.

Once with a VW Golf I had, the gearbox broke and it was stuck in 3rd gear. Now I have never heard of this happening to anyone else I know and trust me many of my friends should break cars the way they drive! To me though the VW warranty kicked in and they replaced the gearbox and I was a happy customer. Occasionally problems happen and we are all aware of that, its how the problem is resolved that makes a difference, so a clear warranty for degradation will surely help to give a clear situation.
 

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With regards to BMW i cars I'm not sure now. I was told by my local dealership that there is no specific capacity warranty but the warranty lasts for 7 years...
Some on this forum seem to think there is a capacity warranty so maybe he was not aware of this or others have presumed something.
I think regardless of whether individuals feel this is or isn't worth much, for the wider public it can only help if there are expectations set for a 'worst case scenario' capacity warranty.
As I said previously, having spent a lot of time at automotive proving grounds over the past few years, the amount of times I have seen Leaf's being driven and charging solely using CHadEMO surely suggests that they have acquired this data to know how quickly the cells can deteriorate.

Remember to those not concerned about this, as with any warranty, it is there to protect people who have cars malfunction on them. The car shouldn't break, but when they do thats what warranties are there fore to give peace of mind. This is surely the same with battery degradation, with the figures that I would be happy to see from the manufacturers, I do not expect many people to fall under the 'eligible for replacement' banner but for those who do, it means a heck of a lot. Its not there for people who just use the car a lot, the figures should be below that level of degradation. It should be there to save people from sheets of batteries malfunctioning, or the thermal management system malfunctioning and cooking cells or a whole host of other potential, although perhaps very unlikely, problems.

Once with a VW Golf I had, the gearbox broke and it was stuck in 3rd gear. Now I have never heard of this happening to anyone else I know and trust me many of my friends should break cars the way they drive! To me though the VW warranty kicked in and they replaced the gearbox and I was a happy customer. Occasionally problems happen and we are all aware of that, its how the problem is resolved that makes a difference, so a clear warranty for degradation will surely help to give a clear situation.
Also something I thought of last night, remember these cells are not going into the cars and manufacturers 'hoping' that they perform well. They will all have done lifecycle testing, heat tests etc. in the laboratory by the battery company e.g. Panasonic with Tesla cars... Before Tesla or any other manufacturers buy the cells, they have gone through a lot of testing to be able to be brought to market in the first place. Between the Automotive manufacturers and the battery campaniles they can surely give a minimum expected capacity ver time/charge cycles...
 

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In which case presumably if Tesla offered something along the lines offered by Nissan i.e. 34% degredation over 5 years / 60k miles this would be acceptable?

Absolutely, hence my point that they must know worst case scenarios for real world driving.
This cannot be a warranty level that people 'try to reach' so they can get a new battery for free, its got to be at a level where its only activated if something out of the ordinary happens and there is a fault in the cells or the battery is seeing bizarre sudden degradation for whatever reason.
 

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In which case presumably if Tesla offered something along the lines offered by Nissan i.e. 34% degredation over 5 years / 60k miles this would be acceptable?
Absolutely in my opinion!
I would be very happy with that, as it gives a clear stance. If for any reason you experience more degradation than that, then its because something is wrong rather than you have just driven it hard...
 

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I doubt it - this is one instance. Once the general public know the facts they'll ignore it. One thing Tesla are very good at is explaining the facts - looking forward to their response.
I wasn't talking about Kevin's case, i was talking about the lack of battery degradation warranty on Teslas
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I wasn't talking about Kevin's case, i was talking about the lack of battery degradation warranty on Teslas
Which hasn't been an issue for anyone that I can find. Do you have an example of a Tesla that is below the Nissan warranty level?

I don't accept that Tesla will allow their cars to become paperweights (that's just not good business). I do accept that degradation is a very hard thing to warranty for and should be treated on a case by case basis.
 

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[An original of this post was done at teslamotorsclub.com, I have copied it here to cover concerns regarding Tesla's lack of a Battery Degradation Warranty in their current Agreements. This thread is NOT meant to discuss @Kevin Sharpe particulars nor his Roadster, it is intended to discuss Tesla's current exclusion of battery degradation in their product.]

In order to be more accurate in representation of what I believe the user community should be asking of Tesla and to expound on concepts that I wrote on a post in my blog.

Clarification for each iteration of the battery helps purchasers understand their responsibilities better. Tesla's Model S Infinite Warranty made great headlines, however it was somewhat misleading with regard to degradation and it's exclusion with regard to the Model S.

In the end, I don't think it really matters to most of us the specifics of Kevin's car or case. What should matter is that Tesla should specify with regard to the Model S and future batteries, Model X, Model 3, AND the purported 400 mile battery an actual expected degradation guidance and what that guidance should be.

Furthermore, I would like it if Tesla would provide some warranty based upon that guideline for replacement under warranty AND a price list if the customer wishes to get a pack that is "newer" or refurbished to a higher capacity than their own aged/degraded battery pack. (i.e. if a particular Tesla owner is only getting 65 kWh on their 85 kWh pack, and the currently unavailable guidance from Tesla specifies that a pack is failed if it is at 30% or lower (59.5 kWh) then the customer should be given a price to bring the pack back to 85 kWh (hopefully with credit for the remaining 6.5 kWh or a pro-rata thereof.)

The Battery Swap demonstration over a year ago took some of these thoughts into consideration over a year ago. Elon mentioned that Tesla knew how good the customer's packs were and that if a customer were to keep the "swapped" pack, then they would just charge the customer for the difference. (so, let's do that with regard to a warranty.)

Though I bought into the hype of the Infinite Mile battery warranty for my S85, I am now questioning the disingenuous nature of that marketing and it's specific exclusions. However, as an owner, if they choose not to do something about it, I'm just stuck until my car's range is "unusable". Which in my case becomes the range of a BMW i3 BEV (i.e. A very long time). However, such a range and the distance between Superchargers will render one of the reasons that I purchased a Model S somewhat moot.

Sadly, the topic for me remains as a request for Tesla to clarify and enhance the future battery warranty AND, if possible, the Roadster Warranty for e different classes (those that are original owners who may still be under a warranty and those of us who are under the CPO warranty, as well as those that are no longer warranted).
 

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Discussion Starter #17
They have a year by year stepped guarantee of output rather than one big drop off at the end.
That's an interesting example, but solar PV is a lot more predictable than battery degradation where user behaviour can have the largest impact.

The 'expected' capacity is really the result of a complex formula involving a lot of inputs - not just simple miles-driven or direct age of car. How do you reflect that in a stepped system other than taking the Nissan approach of the worst possible case?
 

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That's an interesting example, but solar PV is a lot more predictable than battery degradation where user behaviour can have the largest impact.

The 'expected' capacity is really the result of a complex formula involving a lot of inputs - not just simple miles-driven or direct age of car. How do you reflect that in a stepped system other than taking the Nissan approach of the worst possible case?
Give a "time or mileage" and worst possible case scenario assurance perhaps. I can't see fairer than worst case. I can see more generous, but not fairer.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Give a "time or mileage" and worst possible case scenario assurance perhaps. I can't see fairer than worst case. I can see more generous, but not fairer.
Ok, but if it doesn't get calculated based on a use model then it needs to be set at a level that isn't a 'target'. What you can't end up with is a situation were people deliberately abuse their battery to get a replacement. Nissan address that by setting a really hard target and only guaranteeing you a replacement that is just above the warranty level, but that kind of sucks as well.

What should trigger the warranty is an actual problem - not a deliberately created one.

This is why I actually like the Tesla "grey area" warranty today - it's not based on any unfair metric, but their analysis of a real failure. Perhaps they should make that analysis public, but to be fair in Kevin's case they have provided a reasonable summary of their findings.
 
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