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Discussion Starter #1
Apparently a Welsh company are launching a hydrogen cell car next year. I wonder how much it will cost? Toyota have the Mirai at £66k - so like Tesla only for the wealthy. Has anyone on speakEV driven one and if so, what was the drive like? Must be great not to have to worry about charging your car and of course much more sustainable than an EV. The future is water!
 

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Presumably Welsh because they have an excess of water ?

However, I'm thinking this is a wind up, since you say "no need to worry about charging" - perhaps have a look at the availability of electric sockets vs hydrogen filling stations ?

FWIW the "drive" of a hydrogen car vs a BEV car will have zero difference due to the fuel sources, it will be down to the difference in the cars specifications, same as the drive between any two petrol cars, because hydrogen fuelled cars drive the motor from a battery just as a BEV car does.
 

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Hydrogen still requires more electricity to make it than using that electricity directly in a BEV.
Most hydrogen at the moment is made from fossil fuels at oil refineries using a process called steam reforming. Very little is made from only water with electrolysis (which is also energy intensive).

So, use large amounts of electricity and fossil fuels in a reactor to make hydrogen for fuel cells, or use the electricity to charge a battery. Which sounds simpler and more efficient?

I won’t even start on the difficulties of storing hydrogen safely or transporting it around in trucks and in car tanks.
 

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FWIW the "drive" of a hydrogen car vs a BEV car will have zero difference due to the fuel sources, it will be down to the difference in the cars specifications, same as the drive between any two petrol cars, because hydrogen fuelled cars drive the motor from a battery just as a BEV car does.
I remember trials, (some 50 years ago), with Hydrogen as a fuel, that were simply conversions of ICE in the same way as LPG is used. The Fuel cell is a 'new' idea. I wonder what happened to the trials, even then the selling point was the clean exhaust, from a normal car.
 

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any vehicle with an exhaust is a dinosaur...
 

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The only way that hydrogen cars can be greener than BEVs is if there is some way of producing hydrogen found that is well over twice as efficient as simply using the same energy source to feed electricity into the grid, or batteries. Electrolysis can never be more efficient than using that power to charge EVs and if you are planning to use "surplus" electricity in off-peak times this is better stored than wasted in electrolysis. Plans for using algae tubes to produce hydrogen are basically sunlight to car-"fuel" converters and I have yet to see details of anything that beats solar PV to EV.
 

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I remember trials, (some 50 years ago), with Hydrogen as a fuel, that were simply conversions of ICE in the same way as LPG is used. The Fuel cell is a 'new' idea. I wonder what happened to the trials, even then the selling point was the clean exhaust, from a normal car.
Fuel cells have been around for well over 100 years, long before ICE cars.
The problem with burning hydrogen in a conventional ICE engine is that a hydrogen/air mix is much more violent of an explosion than a petrol/air one. They probably gave up after the engines wore out prematurely.
 

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The only way that hydrogen cars can be greener than BEVs is if there is some way of producing hydrogen found that is well over twice as efficient as simply using the same energy source to feed electricity into the grid, or batteries. Electrolysis can never be more efficient than using that power to charge EVs and if you are planning to use "surplus" electricity in off-peak times this is better stored than wasted in electrolysis. Plans for using algae tubes to produce hydrogen are basically sunlight to car-"fuel" converters and I have yet to see details of anything that beats solar PV to EV.
...Unless someone finds a magic catalyst that can help split Hydrogen from water.
Lets hope that they don't otherwise the worlds oceans and lakes would become brilliant terror weapons
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks for finding this video Roger. Be good if everyone watched it right to the end. What a charismatic and interesting chap, who has worked on the RR for over 16 years now and brought it to launch stage. They are about to launch a four door model too. Not sure I understand all the tech, but as he says slightly more sustainable is not nearly as good as fully sustainable, which he believes the RR is. We don't want to be unreconstructed "petrol head" dinosaur types do we? At present we love our EVS, but if something even better for our environment is on the horizon, then surely we should embrace that whole-heartedly too?


I think you are talking about the Riverside Rasa...

 

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Discussion Starter #13
Fuel cells have been around for well over 100 years, long before ICE cars.
The problem with burning hydrogen in a conventional ICE engine is that a hydrogen/air mix is much more violent of an explosion than a petrol/air one. They probably gave up after the engines wore out prematurely.
I remember reading in the press about ten years ago, that a team of British scientists had cracked hydrogen fuel cell safety issues and that we would have cars on the market within five years. Obviously much later than envisaged, but that technology was obviously bought out by Toyota - hence the Mirai but great to see another British company bringing out a car with an incredibly long range and with a vision for a different model of transport, one that keeps ownership of the vehicle with the company and not the driver. Very interesting concept.
 

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A BEV is zero emission at point of use. There are some particulate emissions from the tyres and brakes, but that would apply to any vehicle.

However, a hydrogen fuel cell produces water vapour whilst operating.

I think I'd rather have no tailpipe emissions, than hundreds of cars emitting water vapour from their tailpipes.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Might
A BEV is zero emission at point of use. There are some particulate emissions from the tyres and brakes, but that would apply to any vehicle.

However, a hydrogen fuel cell produces water vapour whilst operating.

I think I'd rather have no tailpipe emissions, than hundreds of cars emitting water vapour from their tailpipes.
Might be good for our skin TVEV? !
 

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At present we love our EVS, but if something even better for our environment is on the horizon, then surely we should embrace that whole-heartedly too?
Sure thing, that would be great. Just, HFC is not near as good for our environment. What even better for our envionment technology did you have in mind?
 

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The riversimple is 10 years too late (at least) its dead, expensive, slow, not very practical (not to mention ugly even by Leaf standards) duck when compared to the current generation of EV's let alone the next gen ones.
If any get used as daily drivers rather than just tech demonstators they will soon have a few more places to fill up though... Shell extends its hydrogen filling network
 

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And what is that parked outside the offices? Looks like a BEV to me...
View attachment 50153
I think that was Robert's (the interviewers) car.

I agree with the other posters that Hydrogen is not the future, unless some amazing development occurs. Batteries are improving year on year while the price drops.

Personally I'd rather be sitting on a bunch of lithium batteries than a tank of highly flammable fossil fuel, or a tank of explosive hydrogen at 10,000 psi...
 
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