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I love this Highview technology of using compressed air to store cheap excess electricity to cover those periods when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine. Been following them for a few years now, and super-excited to see spades going into the ground in Manchester for their first commercial scale plant:

UK energy plant to use liquid air

I know we need an enormous amount of storage to cope with the intermittency of renewables but this simple technology (just build more cheap steel storage tanks for more stored electricity) gives us the means to bridge at least shorter lulls quite easily, and frees up more Lithium for our EVs. Win-win in my book!
 

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I love this Highview technology of using compressed air to store cheap excess electricity to cover those periods when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine. Been following them for a few years now, and super-excited to see spades going into the ground in Manchester for their first commercial scale plant:

UK energy plant to use liquid air

I know we need an enormous amount of storage to cope with the intermittency of renewables but this simple technology (just build more cheap steel storage tanks for more stored electricity) gives us the means to bridge at least shorter lulls quite easily, and frees up more Lithium for our EVs. Win-win in my book!
Are you technically educated or just a complete fool. Storing liquid air requires very expensive insulated tanks fabricated from alloys that are tough, not cheap steel tanks at all It is completely erroneous to state as per the article that air becomes liquid if compressed enough.
 

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Are you technically educated or just a complete fool. Storing liquid air requires very expensive insulated tanks fabricated from alloys that are tough, not cheap steel tanks at all It is completely erroneous to state as per the article that air becomes liquid if compressed enough.
dude, I'm not inclined to block or report anyone but you're coming close. Go and google some, starting with the Highview website then come back and tell me I'm wrong. Or even better tell the British, American and south American groups that are working with Highview that freddym says they're wrong.
 

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dude, I'm not inclined to block or report anyone but you're coming close. Go and google some, starting with the Highview website then come back and tell me I'm wrong. Or even better tell the British, American and south American groups that are working with Highview that freddym says they're wrong.
So are you super excited by compressed ( hot) air or cryogenic liquid air. Not the same thing dude.
 

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I love this Highview technology of using compressed air to store cheap excess electricity to cover those periods when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine. Been following them for a few years now, and super-excited to see spades going into the ground in Manchester for their first commercial scale plant:

UK energy plant to use liquid air

I know we need an enormous amount of storage to cope with the intermittency of renewables but this simple technology (just build more cheap steel storage tanks for more stored electricity) gives us the means to bridge at least shorter lulls quite easily, and frees up more Lithium for our EVs. Win-win in my book!
I am not convinced it represents a great value of £/MWh or acre/MWh, but what I'd like to see is a lot of alternative energy storage systems, and let the best ones win.

Right now we have .. what ... exactly? Batteries are very high £/MWh. Let them get made, let them compete with each other, I say.

I mean, one benefit is pretty clear; materially benign, no nasty chemicals or odd manufacturing techniques generating pollution, just all low-grade tech that anyone familiar with compressors and AC systems can work on.

... this really isn't going to solve many problems though, but let it join the 'fray' and it'll survive if it has a logical place. We need about 1 TWh of storage in the UK, this site will give about 250MWh I have read it saying (some months back) so we need 4,000 of those which is very do-able if it comes good on the 250MWh figure. I'd be 'for' this, for sure if they can deliver that energy density.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
So are you super excited by compressed ( hot) air or cryogenic liquid air. Not the same thing dude.
Not sure why you're confused. The article linked says "liquid air" which suggests cryogenic, does it not?

I also don't see your summary showing me that exotic materials are needed to store liquid air?

And this..
"It is completely erroneous to state as per the article that air becomes liquid if compressed enough. "
is just insane. What are you on?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I am not convinced it represents a great value of £/MWh or acre/MWh, but what I'd like to see is a lot of alternative energy storage systems, and let the best ones win.

Right now we have .. what ... exactly? Batteries are very high £/MWh. Let them get made, let them compete with each other, I say.

I mean, one benefit is pretty clear; materially benign, no nasty chemicals or odd manufacturing techniques generating pollution, just all low-grade tech that anyone familiar with compressors and AC systems can work on.

... this really isn't going to solve many problems though, but let it join the 'fray' and it'll survive if it has a logical place. We need about 1 TWh of storage in the UK, this site will give about 250MWh I have read it saying (some months back) so we need 4,000 of those which is very do-able if it comes good on the 250MWh figure. I'd be 'for' this, for sure if they can deliver that energy density.
Yes, I get that a lot of these new technologies are not necessarily "great value" and agree that we want to see competing technologies. What ultimately swings me to accepting we'll go down one of the "inefficient" routes is that they are part and parcel of getting to higher renewables penetration on the electricity grid.
Obviously we want the cheapest system to win out, because we pay the bills after all, but when you can charge your storage using "free" excess wind energy then the efficiency will likely play a lesser role in determining which technology wins. This graph shows where systems like this one can fit in:

136939


So compressed air is a stepping stone up from batteries as we ramp our total storage up to the levels we need to allow a fully renewables based grid.
 

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Not sure why you're confused. The article linked says "liquid air" which suggests cryogenic, does it not?

I also don't see your summary showing me that exotic materials are needed to store liquid air?

And this..
"It is completely erroneous to state as per the article that air becomes liquid if compressed enough. "
is just insane. What are you on?
He's probably meaning that it has to be cooled as well as compressed, and he'd be right about that.

But guys, look, don't get into an argument, the tech is here today which can be more than said about other stuff. Let 'em have their day. 250MWh is really a massive amount of storage and we would literally solve the conundrum of renewable energy if every town and village had its own 250MWh energy store.
 

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Yes, I get that a lot of these new technologies are not necessarily "great value" and agree that we want to see competing technologies. What ultimately swings me to accepting we'll go down one of the "inefficient" routes is that they are part and parcel of getting to higher renewables penetration on the electricity grid.
Obviously we want the cheapest system to win out, because we pay the bills after all, but when you can charge your storage using "free" excess wind energy then the efficiency will likely play a lesser role in determining which technology wins. This graph shows where systems like this one can fit in:

View attachment 136939

So compressed air is a stepping stone up from batteries as we ramp our total storage up to the levels we need to allow a fully renewables based grid.
Agreed. Hence my 'approval'!! ;)

I can't see it really winning the day, but whether it does or not, for now it only has to show the way!

There is nothing better than showing something can be done than by doing it, and if we are storing energy there then why not elsewhere.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
He's probably meaning that it has to be cooled as well as compressed, and he'd be right about that.

But guys, look, don't get into an argument, the tech is here today which can be more than said about other stuff. Let 'em have their day. 250MWh is really a massive amount of storage and we would literally solve the conundrum of renewable energy if every town and village had its own 250MWh energy store.
Of course he's right but that's not the reason it looks like we're arguing. I inadvertently called out his selfish attitude in another thread, so he's obviously gotten himself into a tizz and decided to have an (unjustified) pop here. If it was justified, then I'd accept that of course. So let's see him show that storing liquid compressed air requires "expensive" materials.

And funny you say "every village.." that's exactly the bag of a *** packet calculation I did a while back. These units are probably compact enough to do just that.
 

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Large scale storage of cryogenic liquids is commonplace, you could call up BOC and have a tank the size of your house delivered to your door. The Highview technology has been extensively covered in engineerng publications over the last few years and properly qualified engineers and scientists seem to think it is workable.
 

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... properly qualified engineers and scientists seem to think it is workable.
That's me, and I think it is workable! ;)

Yes, I have considered various power outputs and energy storage options many times before and a distributed network of a few thousand sites may become necessary (viz, includes 'villages') and mean that every moderately populated area gets its own power/energy facility. I do not see this as any bad thing at all, and a National Grid then has a lower loading and becomes itself a much cheaper proposition.

bearing in mind where we would like to go too, is rapid charging facilities that can cater for a nation. By having a network of high energy sites that can deliver at high power loads is the direction we would want to go.

To my reckoning, the logic of having GW scale power production and GWh storage for a few minutes at a time is an old POV and has had its day. Funnily enough I abandoned an energy project about a decade ago because everyone was thinking GW and it got no support, my scheme was MW. How the world turns!
 

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I've said before on this forum, I really like the idea of cryogenic storage. It also doesn't have to done using huge steel vessels, we can equally use old cave workings deep under ground.

One thing to remember though, is that it's thought that this technology will work best when co-located with a thermal energy plant. The low quality heat from the end of the combined cycle is ideal for rapidly expanding the liquid air into the turbine. Ambient can be used, but you risk creating a localised cold soak which limits your peak output.

Fingers crossed the trial goes well. BOC have a long history in South Wales and we've plenty of opportunities for renewables and also a substantial number of CCGT.
 

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I've said before on this forum, I really like the idea of cryogenic storage. It also doesn't have to done using huge steel vessels, we can equally use old cave workings deep under ground.

One thing to remember though, is that it's thought that this technology will work best when co-located with a thermal energy plant. The low quality heat from the end of the combined cycle is ideal for rapidly expanding the liquid air into the turbine. Ambient can be used, but you risk creating a localised cold soak which limits your peak output.

Fingers crossed the trial goes well. BOC have a long history in South Wales and we've plenty of opportunities for renewables and also a substantial number of CCGT.
Re the low quality heat, I believe one of the options that Highview offer is thermal storage of the waste heat from compression, although I'm sure that would work better if the storage unit was co-located with a chemical works or similar generator of low grade waste heat.
 

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Not sure why you're confused. The article linked says "liquid air" which suggests cryogenic, does it not?

I also don't see your summary showing me that exotic materials are needed to store liquid air?

And this..
"It is completely erroneous to state as per the article that air becomes liquid if compressed enough. "
is just insane. What are you on?
Keep digging your hole. You are obviously incapable of recognising the multiple significant errors and contradictions in your own posts and the quoted article.
 

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I've said before on this forum, I really like the idea of cryogenic storage. It also doesn't have to done using huge steel vessels, we can equally use old cave workings deep under ground.

One thing to remember though, is that it's thought that this technology will work best when co-located with a thermal energy plant. The low quality heat from the end of the combined cycle is ideal for rapidly expanding the liquid air into the turbine. Ambient can be used, but you risk creating a localised cold soak which limits your peak output.

Fingers crossed the trial goes well. BOC have a long history in South Wales and we've plenty of opportunities for renewables and also a substantial number of CCGT.
There are NO CRYOGENIC LIQUID AIR storage sites anywhere in the world. Is this a fantasy post?
 
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