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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Having an interesting discussion with my boss (who rides an electric motorcycle, amongst other things) the other day... His prediction for 10-20yrs time: with the move to 800v charging, we'll see the end of the on board charger, people will charge once a week at rapid hubs as the average consumer will be stuck in the 'petrol pump' mindset. As a result, govt can tax the electricity delivered to vehicles in a similar way to fuel.

I already see the id3's on my local forcourt charging up on compact, 20kW CCS chargers, perhaps this is something we'll see more of.

Discuss.....😉
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Don't you think the market catching headlines of '100 miles range in 10 mins' will force manufacturers to move to higher voltages?

We're already seeing it in the marketing stuff from HKMC around the new Ioniq5...
 

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Then there will be a market for home DC chargers, so you can avoid the tax.

They will become semi-illegal. As in not illegal to buy or fit, but like red diesel, illegal to fill your car with.

There will be a special government team setup, much like TV licensing inspectors who will come and ask if you are charging your car at home without a license. They will be equipped with a special van that can detect a car charging from 500 yards.

There will then spring up a series of illicit ‘moonshine’ chargers at the back of industrial estates and farm buildings. You’ll learn about these places from a guy at your local pub.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
All jokes aside, for all the people who don't have off street parking, why would they need an OBC?
 

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All jokes aside, for all the people who don't have off street parking, why would they need an OBC?
So they could resell it to somebody who does have off road parking when the time comes?

Or they move house?

Or they want to top up overnight at the hotel?

It’s not like removing the OBC is suddenly going to make EVs cheaper, so what’s the benefit other than ensuring a car has to go to a public charger so the electricity can be more easily taxed for road use?
 

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All jokes aside, for all the people who don't have off street parking, why would they need an OBC?
For when they charge at Tesco’s during their weekly shop.

They all have 22 kW OBCs at this point.
 

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Most people do have off street parking.

For me, one of THE biggest advantages of an EV is i dont need to go somewhere to fill it up. It fills itself when parked at home or at work.

Public charging is shit, and any company removing the OBC from their car would likely find it simply doesnt sell.

Further, an AC wallbox is relatively cheap, which is a good thing when you have a public carpark you need to equip with charging. A DC machine on the other hand will always be far more expensive. Most cars spend vast majority of their time parked. Clearly the optimal solution is to charge it where its parked, rather than having to waste my time driving to a "petrol station" and wait about while it fills up. If charging is unavailable at home, then clearly that requirement shifts to whereever else the car parks, be that the workplace, the train station or the local shopping mall.
 

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Having an interesting discussion with my boss (who rides an electric motorcycle, amongst other things) the other day... His prediction for 10-20yrs time: with the move to 800v charging, we'll see the end of the on board charger, people will charge once a week at rapid hubs as the average consumer will be stuck in the 'petrol pump' mindset. As a result, govt can tax the electricity delivered to vehicles in a similar way to fuel.

I already see the id3's on my local forcourt charging up on compact, 20kW CCS chargers, perhaps this is something we'll see more of.

Discuss.....😉
I've said it several times and keep repeating it.

We can do without AC on board chargers right now. Today.

We just need domestic DC chargers that can connect via the rapid ports. Chademo was not really going to happen, the parts too expensive, but CCS, all the pins are there, just need to install a lower power DC charger in your home, if it is standardised quickly enough then savings can be made in mass production.

What you have in your home needs to be no more powerful that what you have now.

Taking the charger out of the car and bolting it to the wall of your garage should reduce overall costs. Especially purchase costs, and that saving multiplies up with your next, and more, EVs.

I don't understand why people don't get how simple this is. Take the on board charger out of cars and give it to the customer in a box to put on their wall.

Summary; future of on-board charging .. none at all, it is now completely old-hat and out-dated, cars have too big a battery now for it to be of any substantial value. I am genuinely surprised no VMs actually taken it out of their cars yet.
 

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Sorry folks. The ability to use that much maligned but universally available 13 amp socket is the bedrock of EV charging security.

Manufacturers are getting mean and not providing the granny charger as standard but you can buy one and you are secure. I did.

Removing the onboard AC charger forces us to use specialist EV charging equipment which will never be as widespread as domestic sockets.
 

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Sorry folks. The ability to use that much maligned but universally available 13 amp socket is the bedrock of EV charging security.

Manufacturers are getting mean and not providing the granny charger as standard but you can buy one and you are secure. I did.

Removing the onboard AC charger forces us to use specialist EV charging equipment which will never be as widespread as domestic sockets.
This is why I say 'I don't understand why people don't get how simple this is'.

Taking the on-board charger out of the car in no way at all prevents you from plugging into domestic AC. You just need the right lead, which is always true of plugging into domestic AC anyway (unless you have a Twizy).
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I've said it several times and keep repeating it.

We can do without AC on board chargers right now. Today.

We just need domestic DC chargers that can connect via the rapid ports. Chademo was not really going to happen, the parts too expensive, but CCS, all the pins are there, just need to install a lower power DC charger in your home, if it is standardised quickly enough then savings can be made in mass production.

What you have in your home needs to be no more powerful that what you have now.

Taking the charger out of the car and bolting it to the wall of your garage should reduce overall costs. Especially purchase costs, and that saving multiplies up with your next, and more, EVs.

I don't understand why people don't get how simple this is. Take the on board charger out of cars and give it to the customer in a box to put on their wall.

Summary; future of on-board charging .. none at all, it is now completely old-hat and out-dated, cars have too big a battery now for it to be of any substantial value. I am genuinely surprised no VMs actually taken it out of their cars yet.
I can see it going this way. We already have to pay for a home charge point, or a granny charger with some electronics inside. Might as well reduce the cost of the car and give people the option of a home charger that's DC only.
 

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I can see it going this way. We already have to pay for a home charge point, or a granny charger with some electronics inside. Might as well reduce the cost of the car and give people the option of a home charger that's DC only.
Exactly.

It doesn't just save on the cost of the charger, it saves on all the re-engineering that is required for 'that' charger to be installed in all the various platforms, each car getting a slightly different design, different software, etc etc. Take them all out and give customers all just one standardised DC charger removes the redesign cost, the body in white cost, and allows proper mass-production volumes (and associated savings) without a thousand little changes between models, as well as reducing the mass of the car and making more space for .. something .. a REx! ... more battery?

It gives the choice to customers. Consider current scenario; you live in a flat and will only ever use public rapids, never using the on-board charger? (This is specifically your original point.) Tough!! You still have to pay for it, and to add insult to injury you have to cart it around as dead weight forever.

Also, consider; you have two BEVs, and thus two AC/DC converters bolted on to them. Each of the two gets X hours of use per day and is a wasted resource for the rest. Unbolt them, use one with two cars (one after the other), then you get double the usage out of one charger.
 

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new ev owner perspective here - (17 days 😁)

charging is so much of a non issue! I thought it would be a real problem so spent the first couple of days ownership trying/figuring out all my local chargers. In the end I don’t really think about it!

Ive had a home charger installed - but (long story) only drawn 20kw from it so far. Rest has been the odd tesco top up and some rapids. The longer range (id3 58kw) and summer mean I’m just not thinking about it.

I wonder if many peoples (external to here) perception is that you have to have it plugged in and charging every night… which for 90% plus of drivers simply isn’t going to be case.

At a (free Manchester) rapid charger I was talking to a bloke who pulled up in his work leased ECorsa (I had 3 min left to charge) and he was saying he treats it just like a petrol car. Lives in a flat - no charge point. Runs it done to near empty - charges up to full (and why might he care if it’s a lease etc..). So this is/will be the future for many.
Taxing at the rapid charger may well come - perhaps this is why all grant fitted home chargers are now smart? So the ability is there to log and thus tax?

persobally I think in 5 years or so we’ll see a shift to dynamic road-use taxing. So you’ll pay tax per mile - and that tax will change according to the type of road (urban/rural) and how busy the road is (time of day/rush hour etc..).
 

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One of the main reasons we won't see the end of home charging is that it's extremely important for a shift towards a decarbonised grid. The national grid needs us to be able to charge our cars in times of high generation and not charge them (and possibly use them to power our homes) when generation is low. This is pretty straightforward with a large fleet of electric cars plugged in for a fair amount of the day. It's not possible if everyone is using rapid chargers which they will obviously do during waking hours when electricity demand is already high.

The national grid will want and need cars plugged into the grid as much as possible. And so do we, a greener grid is better for health, the environment and climate.
 

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The idea that taxing electricity put into cars is so incredibly stupid that it's almost certain to become UK government policy at some point.

This fundamentally seems to be an idea based on an existing business model. I still think the days of that model are numbered. The ability to charge at home and therefore not need to visit some sort of forecourt at all is one of the major benefits of EVs. We don't yet know what the solution is going to be for mass adoption without off-street parking, but I don't think removing the ability to AC charge is likely to be what happens.

Still, 10 years is a long time to be making predictions like this. 20 years is another world away.
 

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Good points. Though incentivising off peak rapid charger use would be easy…
Would it? Off-peak from the perspective of the grid is typically 00:00 - 07:00, personally I'd need one heck of an incentive to get up in the middle of the night and go out for a drive to charge the EV.

I can see off peak charging using street lamp mounted slow chargers becoming common, very similar to home charging.
 

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This is why I say 'I don't understand why people don't get how simple this is'.

Taking the on-board charger out of the car in no way at all prevents you from plugging into domestic AC. You just need the right lead, which is always true of plugging into domestic AC anyway (unless you have a Twizy).
Except that "lead" is substantially more expensive, bigger and heavier. A 7kW DC charger would be much than any existing AC EVSE, and not the sort of thing most people would want to drag around for charging at their granny's house.
It would need significant cooling, usually a fan, as opposed to the OBC which shares the car's liquid cooling system. Fans are always bad for reliability. More so on equipment that lives on an outside wall.
Keeping the high voltage DC inside the car seems like a good idea for safety - a damaged 800v DC charge cable in a domestic environment is somewhat more scary than AC mains.

I can see that OBCs might potentially be optional, but only for situations like fleets etc. with their own DC charging setup. For the average car, OBCs are here to stay.
 

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Having an interesting discussion with my boss (who rides an electric motorcycle, amongst other things) the other day... His prediction for 10-20yrs time: with the move to 800v charging, we'll see the end of the on board charger, people will charge once a week at rapid hubs as the average consumer will be stuck in the 'petrol pump' mindset.
In 10-20 years, people will have got used to the idea of home charging - "petrol pump mentaility" will disappear way before that and people will wonder how anyone ever put up with having to go somewhere to fuel their car
 
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