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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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Ok, so we have an onboard charger 100 percent integrated with the cars BMS, Cooling systems etc. It's included in the long warranty. It guarantees the longevity of the battery by limiting ripple..
Now throw all that away and substitute consumer grade junk. Good move Donald馃槣
All guaranteed yeah, great, and 'return to dealer' for 3 months while they figure out why it is not working then tell you the repair cost is 拢5k.

馃槣

You have to send the whole car back and be without it just because one unnecessary part is broken!?

馃槣

"Hey, you have now had my car for 3 months and still not figured out what is wrong with it, could you just lend me an OffBC?"

You see how easy that could be?

Hey, y'all are utterly and totally dogmatically insistent you are right, so therefore you feel some moral righteousness to force your solution on others and actively prevent them from their preference. Right?

Why not just let others do what they want, while you do what you want? Why must you stop others from an alternative solution?
 

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Renault Zoe 50
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Let me get this straight; you want to prevent OTHERS from deleting this part from their car, just because YOU want it and think everyone else should have it?
Now I know you are one for the facts.

Please point out where I wanted to stop people doing this.
 

I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
Joined
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Now I know you are one for the facts.

Please point out where I wanted to stop people doing this.
Your argument says it. You are saying 'don't do this'.

If you were not, why not jsut say "sure, let's make OnBCs optional and let the market decide. I think people will want to pay 拢3k extra (to a price cheaper than today's) for an OnBC".
 

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Renault Zoe 50
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I'm just suggesting to offer the option, then let the market decide. I am not seeking for force any decisions nor preference on you, and yet you appear to be wanting to force your decision and preference on me?
OK, we鈥檒l this is why you aren鈥檛 responsible for the options lists on cars.

I don鈥檛 know why they don鈥檛 start offering the option of no windscreen and wipers on cars. I mean they鈥檙e not required legally and I鈥檇 like to have the choice.
 

I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
Joined
30,287 Posts
OK, we鈥檒l this is why you aren鈥檛 responsible for the options lists on cars.

I don鈥檛 know why they don鈥檛 start offering the option of no windscreen and wipers on cars. I mean they鈥檙e not required legally and I鈥檇 like to have the choice.
They are legally required, so I don't follow your argument.

An OBC is neither legally required nor even necessary, for all the reasons discussed above.
 

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Renault Zoe 50
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If you were not, why not jsut say "sure, let's make OnBCs optional and let the market decide. I think people will want to pay 拢3k extra for an OnBC".
What I actually asked is for you to show me how this makes either practical or economic sense.

Yet you seem to spend your time misrepresenting people.

You really are full of it tonight.
 

I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
Joined
30,287 Posts
What I actually asked is for you to show me how this makes either practical or economic sense.

Yet you seem to spend your time misrepresenting people.

You really are full of it tonight.
I have explained why it makes financial sense above.

Do you want me to simply repeat the post, because you're not bothering to read the explanations you are asking for, when given?

As for practical, it is less mass on the car. And if it goes wrong, your car is not off the road for N weeks.

If you are in agreement with me that OnBCs could be made optional, they we are not disagreeing.
 

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Renault Zoe 50
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All guaranteed yeah, great, and 'return to dealer' for 3 months while they figure out why it is not working then tell you the repair cost is 拢5k.

馃槣

You have to send the whole car back and be without it just because one unnecessary part is broken!?

馃槣

"Hey, you have now had my car for 3 months and still not figured out what is wrong with it, could you just lend me an OffBC?"

You see how easy that could be?

Hey, y'all are utterly and totally dogmatically insistent you are right, so therefore you feel some moral righteousness to force your solution on others and actively prevent them from their preference. Right?

Why not just let others do what they want, while you do what you want? Why must you stop others from an alternative solution?
Crying. 馃ぃ 馃ぃ 馃ぃ 馃ぃ
 

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Renault Zoe 50
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21,526 Posts
I have explained why it makes financial sense above.

As for practical, it is less mass on the car.

If you are in agreement with me that OnBCs could be made optional, they we are not disagreeing.
Erm, no. I provided hard figures that proved your wrong.

You waved you hand in the air.

Now go back and get some proper numbers to support your point of view.

I have a bottle of white wine (dulce) and all night.
 

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Renault Zoe 50
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If you are in agreement with me that OnBCs could be made optional, they we are not disagreeing.
I鈥檓 saying they 鈥榗ould鈥 do it, but they won鈥檛 because it鈥檚 a stupid option.

A bit like trying to buy an EV in British Racing Green.
 

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Your argument says it. You are saying 'don't do this'.

If you were not, why not jsut say "sure, let's make OnBCs optional and let the market decide. I think people will want to pay 拢3k extra (to a price cheaper than today's) for an OnBC".

拢1350 off the shelf. I don't expect VW et al are paying retail on their mass produced cars...
 

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I'm a bit confused?!?!

From what I can gather from this is there is no point having AC going into the car as it gets turned into DC for the battery, so lets feed it it DC externally using an AC to DC charger.

If that is the case then why do we have AC in homes?, as pretty much everything we plug in uses DC, well anything with electronics in it! Only things that don't use AC could use DC instead, cooker, heater, lights, fridges (although any electronics will use DC again) e.t.c. or am I missing something???

Using some of the logic from some posts ,I could say that I have never ever had a puncture on any of my cars, so I don't need to carry a spare wheel and jack as they are just extra weight and wasted space! But if I did have a puncture in the middle of nowhere I would be very happy to have a spare I could put on and carry on with my journey even if it was one of those crappy space saver things. I wouldn't want to use tyre slime as it doesn't always work and when trying to get a puncture repaired, a lot of tyre places will curse you and insist on fitting a new tyre.

There are plenty of other parts of a car that are never used by people, so again, could be classed as a waste.
Maybe people never take rear passengers, so lets take the rear seats out :)
 

I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
Joined
30,287 Posts
If that is the case then why do we have AC in homes?
Ah, this goes back to the long battle between Edison and Tesla.

The reason is that power transmission at higher voltages is more efficient (lower current) and it is easy to convert AC from one voltage to another, up or down, using a transformer.

In the past, there was no simple way to do this.

If we were re-inventing domestic electric power today, then DC would be a viable option. There are now even benefits to HVDC power transmission, but this was just not something that was possible before a decade or two ago.

But, further to the heart of your question, you'd STILL need a DC/DC converter between a domestic DC supply and your car. The DC voltage has to be regulated, the battery and the BMS tell the charger what voltage to generate.

My proposition to do the AC/DC conversion outside the car rather than in is not about what type of power is being converted, it always has to be converted, I'm just saying better to do it outside the car than inside it;-
1) it dispenses with the 'access point', the thing OLEV give you a grant for and companies overcharge you for, (saves money)
2) you don't have to pay for the AC/DC charger upfront, mounted to your car (saves upfront cost, and unlikely to be much more than an 'AC access point' when you buy it).
3) if it goes wrong, it goes wrong off the car, not on it meaning you lose the car to the dealer for untold ages
4) Saves all up weight of the car, thus that little bit less to lug around and use up battery energy.
5) Anyone that still wants 2kW off a 3-pin can still have it, they just buy a different type of lead (average consumer would never know/notice any difference).
 

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Ah, this goes back to the long battle between Edison and Tesla.

The reason is that power transmission at higher voltages is more efficient (lower current) and it is easy to convert AC from one voltage to another, up or down, using a transformer.

In the past, there was no simple way to do this.

If we were re-inventing domestic electric power today, then DC would be a viable option. There are now even benefits to HVDC power transmission, but this was just not something that was possible before a decade or two ago.

But, further to the heart of your question, you'd STILL need a DC/DC converter between a domestic DC supply and your car. The DC voltage has to be regulated, the battery and the BMS tell the charger what voltage to generate.
Donald being a bit selective: even today for most duties, a 3 phase induction motor is the preferred lowest cost most reliable way to convert electrical to rotating mechanical power.
 

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Nissan LEAF30
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you don't have to pay for the AC/DC charger upfront, mounted to your car (saves upfront cost, and unlikely to be much more than an 'AC access point' when you buy it).
Indeed - you may never need to buy one if you are not one of the fortunate that have access to their own off-street parking/charging. Around 60% of homes don't and hence will have to share charging points and hence will share a AC/DC convertor rather than having one that stands unused most of the time.
 

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Indeed - you may never need to buy one if you are not one of the fortunate that have access to their own off-street parking/charging. Around 60% of homes don't and hence will have to share charging points and hence will share a AC/DC convertor rather than having one that stands unused most of the time.
Donald has never quoted any source for his estimates of the retail saving by not having an OBC. Probably the cost saving is zero ( since it's theoretical).
 

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ID.4 1st edition (previously Mitsubishi outlander PHEV)
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Taking the charger out of the car and bolting it to the wall of your garage should reduce overall costs. Especially purchase costs, and that saving multiplies up with your next, and more, EVs.
so if the car manufacturers are mass producing the charger and putting it in the car... then moving it out of the car and into a box, then fitting it externally will be cheaper? Why??? there is no reason this makes the capital outlay cheaper
Parts are same cost... so it wont be it several car ownerships later you see any benefit, and the benefit will be small!

There might be other benefits, but these I find hard to see at this current time, about the only one is the abolition of the the granny charger. (debated elsewhere so dont go into it here!)

I see more issues with having to retrofit the whole AC charging network in homes, companies, hotels, car parks and other destination locations, with a DC charger. People will feel it is a little bit of a money making scheme.

TBH the concept whilst interesting , is a little bit like closing the barn door after the horse has bolted.
 
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