Speak EV - Electric Car Forums banner
101 - 120 of 133 Posts

·
Registered
Nissan LEAF30
Joined
·
7,098 Posts
You are assuming an immediate change to all existing cars and charging points. Just because one course was selected early on doesn't mean that it should be perpetuated. For example, cars all used to carry spare wheels/tyres but this has evolved over time to the not doing so for reasons of economy, but it didn't mean that on a particular date/time all existing vehicles stopped and it was just something that some manufacturers stopped fitting as standard, although often they will provide them as an optional extra (e.g. LEAF).
You are also assuming that people will all have an OffBC for each car - that is very unlikely to be necessary.
 

·
Registered
ID.4 1st edition (previously Mitsubishi outlander PHEV)
Joined
·
372 Posts
In 10-20 years, people will have got used to the idea of home charging - "petrol pump mentaility" will disappear way before that and people will wonder how anyone ever put up with having to go somewhere to fuel their car
already have that view! lol

hate going to the garage to fill the ICE... infact we only fill the 107 every few months now and I've almost forgotten what to do (lol) would change it to a BEV if I could justify the expense.
 

·
Registered
Nissan LEAF30
Joined
·
7,098 Posts
Donald has never quoted any source for his estimates of the retail saving by not having an OBC. Probably the cost saving is zero ( since it's theoretical).
If you have ever seen the complexity of an OnBC and the cooling system for them then you'd not say that there is no potential cost saving either in initial purchase cost or in terms of the mass added to the vehicle.
 

·
Registered
Nissan LEAF30
Joined
·
7,098 Posts
In 10-20 years, people will have got used to the idea of home charging
How will people without off-street parking do "home charging"? The majority of properties don't have anywhere suitable and hence when "everybody" has EVs then some form of shared resource will be necessary, and if you are sharing other elements of the resource then why not share the charger as well?
 

·
Registered
ID.4 1st edition (previously Mitsubishi outlander PHEV)
Joined
·
372 Posts
I guess my solar system is gravity fed as well? :)
Think you are right... the light has fallen from the sun and then onto the solar panels.
It then has all the momentum to push it through the copper pipes and if your cables go underground, then it should just use that momentum to push it back up to the CU.
But it might depend on how deep and how much of the cable is underground!!!
 

·
Registered
ID.4 1st edition (previously Mitsubishi outlander PHEV)
Joined
·
372 Posts
Classic @donald quote!!! 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
yep its confruntational to him if people dont agree with his perspective,
but he isnt being confrontational if he says something which opposes our views, using the direct and abrasive tone he does.

I have suggested to him he learns about other perspectives and different solutions to problems... but he thought I was being confrontational!

I think we have to accept he is like marmite!
 

·
Registered
ID.4 1st edition (previously Mitsubishi outlander PHEV)
Joined
·
372 Posts
So Im going to make one last point here...

given there are over 10M evs worldwide (some internet post)... I would estimate somewhere around a similar number of AC charge points and granny chargers exist. How will we replace that volume? Who pays? how do you ensure people can still use these cars? Who will pay to change all those desitination chargers that exist?

Once you have built an infrastructure, it is very difficult to displace it, you have to build a replacement alongside which competes. So which car manufacturer is going to support only the new one? You then find they feel they need to support both, and this then adds cost to the consumer.

Theory is all very well and good, but there is a real world out there. Car manufacturers are battling the challenge of the annihilation of ICE, and are looking at how to compete in the BEV world. The last thing on their mind is to how to replace the charging infrastructure.

Design has priorities, and creating the competing charging infrastrucutre is not top of the list!

Now as I typed this, I though, ok so a DC wall charger uses CCS... this means no changes to the cars. (hang on - that means components like cable and connector are more expensive!)
Given as has been pointed out, the charge point will cost more than an AC charge point... who (user) will install it other than ultra rich and people who want to make a statement?
Why would the government in any country subsidise the expensive item, when they can just get everyone to have the cheaper item.

Moving to DC wall charging might be worthwhile in a decade or so, but it is a dead duck for the foreseeable future.

Last point as I type... what is the benefit to the customer/car owner?
I can charge over night? (or during the day) does DC charging at the same current give any extra performance? No!
Is it any safer? maybe, but the existing ac charge point is safe
is it cheaper? no, some capital outlay will be shifted from the car to the charge point, but the charge point will be more expensive

So why should I change?
 

·
Registered
Nissan LEAF30
Joined
·
7,098 Posts
So why should I change?
For your existing EV? Probably not.

Do you intend buying a new OnBC each time you change car? For a one-off (assuming that you don't move house) cost you can buy an OffBC and then use with all future cars. I suspect that first time around it will be more expensive, but after that you'll be better off financially. Your cars will be lighter and hence (marginally) faster and more efficient, and in terms of packaging it is one significantly sized object less to be found a home in the car providing more room. A wall mounted unit is less likely to be susceptible to damage from road vibration and car accidents and is one less thing to go wrong whilst travelling. If it does you will not have to "lose" your car to the (often incompetent) garages and instead can charge elsewhere whilst your OffBC is repaired.
 

·
Registered
ID.4 1st edition (previously Mitsubishi outlander PHEV)
Joined
·
372 Posts
OK so I said it was the last point... but another though occured to me.
My brother in law owns a major EV installation compay. As he said... most people havent a clue, they just have the company install what the company sells!

Similarly a friend of mine worked for an Oil company and I remember asking years ago (when I drove an LPG car) why LPG was not heavily supported in the UK whereas in europe it was popular... he said it is down to the goverment funding and taxation.

So there is a simple truth... if the goverment subsidised a DC charge network for the home, we will see it because manufactures and insallers will want to grab all the grant money. if not... we will just see AC chargers for a long long time.
 

·
Registered
ID.4 1st edition (previously Mitsubishi outlander PHEV)
Joined
·
372 Posts
For your existing EV? Probably not.

Do you intend buying a new OnBC each time you change car? For a one-off (assuming that you don't move house) cost you can buy an OffBC and then use with all future cars. I suspect that first time around it will be more expensive, but after that you'll be better off financially. Your cars will be lighter and hence (marginally) faster and more efficient, and in terms of packaging it is one significantly sized object less to be found a home in the car providing more room. A wall mounted unit is less likely to be susceptible to damage from road vibration and car accidents and is one less thing to go wrong whilst travelling. If it does you will not have to "lose" your car to the (often incompetent) garages and instead can charge elsewhere whilst your OffBC is repaired.
valid...

We will ultimately change to DC charging, but its more a case of when!
and until the charge point becomes the focus point to differenciate, then noone is going to make that move.

But it also means we need to do more work on range and the charging infrastructure, so that the destination charge becomes less relevant. With the volume of destination chargers in hotels and carparks, unless these are replaced (and you need a justification to do this), then there is always going to be a challenge with people worried about charging if they only have CCS chargers to choose. (you decimated the charging network if you remove AC chargers)
 

·
Registered
Nissan LEAF30
Joined
·
7,098 Posts
If they hadn't made such a mess of the CCS charging standard then V2X might also have speeded up the adoption, but as was said earlier it will be a brave manufacturer to make the first step.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,161 Posts
At present I think it's best for cars to have OBC's, I have on several occasions taken the car to locations where there is no charger and I have been able to use an EVSE to charge my car. If it meant that all chargers had to be DC external ones, it would just change from having one installed on the car to having one at home and carting another one around in the boot for occasional charging away from home.

AC to DC charging isn't as straight forward as just rectifying the mains, you need to transform your voltage up to the voltage that the battery requires for charging then rectify and smooth it. Generally a power supply does this by means of a switched mode supply, rectifying the mains to DC and smoothing it with capacitors, this rough DC is then switched on and off rapidly through a high frequency transformer, rectified again and smoothed. The output voltage is fed back to the input side to either change the mark space ratio of the pulses or their frequency to ensure the output voltage is correct. Generally there's some protection circuitry to ensure the output can't go too high should something fail in the feedback loop. Expect some cooling to be required for a 7kW charger, the OBC generally uses liquid cooling. External cooling would probably be a fan. If you have a fan then that presents waterproofing issues especially for your EVSE which could be used in any orientation. Having said that virtually all equipment has these switched mode supplies in them and the technology is quite well known. You also don't have to manufacture it to be able to withstand the same rough environment that the car has to withstand (vibration, heat etc)

Safety is another issue, it's easy to give RCD protection to single phase AC, High power DC at 400 V+ is a bit more challenging. All cars use control signals to only turn the charger on once a secure connection is made, but it can't tell if the flex has been damaged. Sticking with an OBC keeps the high voltage DC safely insulated within the car. Who's going to police standards for external 7kW chargers.

It's interesting to see that the Zoe comes with 22kW AC on board charging and that DC charging is an optional extra.

DC external charging could sense if your going to share the charger between vehicles but I suspect the AC external charger model has won and it would be difficult to sell a car without AC charging, as those chargers are everywhere and 7kW DC charging doesn't already exist in any meaningful numbers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,465 Posts
so if the car manufacturers are mass producing the charger and putting it in the car... then moving it out of the car and into a box, then fitting it externally will be cheaper? Why??? there is no reason this makes the capital outlay cheaper
Parts are same cost... so it wont be it several car ownerships later you see any benefit, and the benefit will be small!

There might be other benefits, but these I find hard to see at this current time, about the only one is the abolition of the the granny charger. (debated elsewhere so dont go into it here!)

I see more issues with having to retrofit the whole AC charging network in homes, companies, hotels, car parks and other destination locations, with a DC charger. People will feel it is a little bit of a money making scheme.

TBH the concept whilst interesting , is a little bit like closing the barn door after the horse has bolted.
You are forgetting that the prophet superior to all normal mortals has decreed " the abdomination that is the OBC shall henceforth be banned..."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,465 Posts
At present I think it's best for cars to have OBC's, I have on several occasions taken the car to locations where there is no charger and I have been able to use an EVSE to charge my car. If it meant that all chargers had to be DC external ones, it would just change from having one installed on the car to having one at home and carting another one around in the boot for occasional charging away from home.

AC to DC charging isn't as straight forward as just rectifying the mains, you need to transform your voltage up to the voltage that the battery requires for charging then rectify and smooth it. Generally a power supply does this by means of a switched mode supply, rectifying the mains to DC and smoothing it with capacitors, this rough DC is then switched on and off rapidly through a high frequency transformer, rectified again and smoothed. The output voltage is fed back to the input side to either change the mark space ratio of the pulses or their frequency to ensure the output voltage is correct. Generally there's some protection circuitry to ensure the output can't go too high should something fail in the feedback loop. Expect some cooling to be required for a 7kW charger, the OBC generally uses liquid cooling. External cooling would probably be a fan. If you have a fan then that presents waterproofing issues especially for your EVSE which could be used in any orientation. Having said that virtually all equipment has these switched mode supplies in them and the technology is quite well known. You also don't have to manufacture it to be able to withstand the same rough environment that the car has to withstand (vibration, heat etc)

Safety is another issue, it's easy to give RCD protection to single phase AC, High power DC at 400 V+ is a bit more challenging. All cars use control signals to only turn the charger on once a secure connection is made, but it can't tell if the flex has been damaged. Sticking with an OBC keeps the high voltage DC safely insulated within the car. Who's going to police standards for external 7kW chargers.

It's interesting to see that the Zoe comes with 22kW AC on board charging and that DC charging is an optional extra.

DC external charging could sense if your going to share the charger between vehicles but I suspect the AC external charger model has won and it would be difficult to sell a car without AC charging, as those chargers are everywhere and 7kW DC charging doesn't already exist in any meaningful numbers.
This is a state of the art Chinese DC charger, fan air cooled, not weather protected, probably terrible ripple ( great get of of jail for the vehicle manufacturer by the way), ok 10kW compared to 7;kW domestic single phase..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,465 Posts
This is a state of the art Chinese DC charger, fan air cooled, not weather protected, probably terrible ripple ( great get of of jail for the vehicle manufacturer by the way), ok 10kW compared to 7;kW domestic single phase..
2500 dollar plus shipping plus taxes cheapest on Alibaba
 

·
Registered
ID.4 1st edition (previously Mitsubishi outlander PHEV)
Joined
·
372 Posts
This is a state of the art Chinese DC charger, fan air cooled, not weather protected, probably terrible ripple ( great get of of jail for the vehicle manufacturer by the way), ok 10kW compared to 7;kW domestic single phase..
interesting
I cant work out if it is 3ph; it seems to imply single AND 3 phase both needed! BUT may be a translation thing...
the input voltage can only be provided if 3ph not single phase!

147378
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,465 Posts
You are assuming an immediate change to all existing cars and charging points. Just because one course was selected early on doesn't mean that it should be perpetuated. For example, cars all used to carry spare wheels/tyres but this has evolved over time to the not doing so for reasons of economy, but it didn't mean that on a particular date/time all existing vehicles stopped and it was just something that some manufacturers stopped fitting as standard, although often they will provide them as an optional extra (e.g. LEAF).
You are also assuming that people will all have an OffBC for each car - that is very unlikely to be necessary.
This argument is a little bit like BMW saying, gosh these battery cars really don't have a great range so guess what we will reduce weight by building them out of carbon fibre and reduce drag by equipping them with skinny wheels which as we all know has turned out to be an evolutionary dead end which just proves the perfection on a paper spec ( deletion of the oh so heavy OBC) counts for nothing.
 

·
I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
Joined
·
30,287 Posts
Donald has never quoted any source for his estimates of the retail saving by not having an OBC. Probably the cost saving is zero ( since it's theoretical).
I've never tried to quote a source, but these things cost a £k or two, and then there is the packaging and installation, software, etc.

By taking the same unit off the production line and simply handing it over to the customer to stick in a box on the wall and wire it up (as the VM would do, so similar costs) I am proposing that there is no additional cost in having it on or off the car.

I foresee little variation of cost in that regard, it simply moves that 'box'. However the difference to it being on the wall is that it replaces the charge point and the saving of that cost (which most installers seem to rake in >£1k, inc the OLEV grant).

If you want me to quote a reference for cost of wall charge points I can go look, but there are a dozen posts on that excessive cost a week at the moment.

so if the car manufacturers are mass producing the charger and putting it in the car... then moving it out of the car and into a box, then fitting it externally will be cheaper? Why??? there is no reason this makes the capital outlay cheaper
As above.

But also, if you have ever been in the business of taking a 1st tier supplier part and installing it on a vehicle platform, you will know this step is not 'zero cost'. There is a cost for having a proliferation of different installation designs. If it is just one design being a flat brick wall (rather than an assortment of odd shaped bumper, bulkhead and wing mounted brackets) I'd say it stands to reason that the installation costs would be cheaper.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,465 Posts
I've never tried to quote a source, but these things cost a £k or two, and then there is the packaging and installation, software, etc.

By taking the same unit off the production line and simply handing it over to the customer to stick in a box on the wall and wire it up (as the VM would do, so similar costs) I am proposing that there is no additional cost in having it on or off the car.

I foresee little variation of cost in that regard, it simply moves that 'box'. However the difference to it being on the wall is that it replaces the charge point and the saving of that cost (which most installers seem to rake in >£1k, inc the OLEV grant).

If you want me to quote a reference for cost of wall charge points I can go look, but there are a dozen posts on that excessive cost a week at the moment.
Look this is patent nonsense. We have a hypothetical cost of an OBC which D insists is thousands but is probably 100s.
There is a supposed huge cost to write software etc: this is a fixed cost whether OBC fitted or not so cost saving is NIL.
YOUR numbers are made up.
 
101 - 120 of 133 Posts
Top