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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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Look this is patent nonsense. We have a hypothetical cost of an OBC which D insists is thousands but is probably 100s.
There is a supposed huge cost to write software etc: this is a fixed cost whether OBC fitted or not so cost saving is NIL.
YOUR numbers are made up.
Sorry, I forgot people install imaginary charge points that cost £0!

... Look, I am saying 'no effective cost change', what is YOUR argument for saying one is more expensive than the other?

The cost saving is NOT the box, I am suggesting those cost changes are flat neutral. The savings are;
  • no AC outlet required
  • no carting around dead weight that some people won't use (= CO2 saving too)
 

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ID.4 1st edition (previously Mitsubishi outlander PHEV)
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Sorry, I forgot people install imaginary charge points that cost £0!

... Look, I am saying 'no effective cost change', what is YOUR argument for saying one is more expensive than the other?

The cost saving is NOT the box, I am suggesting those cost changes are flat neutral.
no that isnt what you said... its what we have all been saying... it is neutral at best, but probably more expensive.
your first reply is clear about it being cheaper overall.

Taking the charger out of the car and bolting it to the wall of your garage should reduce overall costs. Especially purchase costs, and that saving multiplies up with your next, and more, EVs.
 

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ID.4 1st edition (previously Mitsubishi outlander PHEV)
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look if a DC charger was cost effective, then why is noone making any for the domestic market?
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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no that isnt what you said... its what we have all been saying... it is neutral at best, but probably more expensive.
your first reply is clear about it being cheaper overall.
Woah, talk about half a quote!

The cost reduction is in not needing the AC outlet. I have repeated that a few times.

Like I have now said several times, people really can't get their heads around understanding this. It's all some magic water filling up their cars, must be necessary, whatever it is we've been told to use.
 

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ID.4 1st edition (previously Mitsubishi outlander PHEV)
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Donald… put simply your argument is flawed and I don’t agree with you. (And please don’t post another patronising answer, I’m tired of it).

you need a wall box, so any costs to put in a dc charger rather than an ac charge point is one where the costs shift from the car to the wall box. The dc charger will be an incremental cost over the ac charge point. so negate cost savings in the car. in reality, in today’s market, the net effect is at best neutral but likely to be incremental,
so there is no cost saving from an absence of an ac outlet; You have used the money saved from the car and what would have been paid on the ac charge point, and use it all to fund a dc charger,

it needs to be beneficial with people, who will struggle to understand why a sub 400 quid charge point is now circa 1500-2000. they expect evs to come down in price but expect the charge point to do the same not double or tripple in price.
Don’t say grants… why should the government pay to subsidise expensive chargers when there is a cheaper alternative.

if it was cost effective, people would already do this.
tesla chargers would be dc, it’s not like they haven’t thought about this, if they could make the dc charger for home use (and as a destination charge point) for less incremental cost that the obc, they would have,
I would also argue, all the car manufacturers would already be making home chargers which are dc to help them transition on their next gen cars.
And the Koreans, would have done this as they are way ahead in their thinking with EV design.

so an interesting concept on paper does not translate into real world savings in today’s climate.
It will happen, and maybe in less than a decade, but it’s not going to happen easily or quickly,
 

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Discussion Starter · #127 ·
Well, that escalated quickly.... I was never suggesting DC home charging. I was suggesting that as people without off road parking start to publicly charge on 150 and 350kW CCS, whilst they shop for half an hour once a week, the requirement for an OBC would be gone.

I know if I had a tesla, I'd be 100% reliant on the SC network so I wouldn't use an OBC.
 
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'18 Zoe ZE 40 R110 + '21 VW ID.4 1st
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It is pretty well-known that high-power DC charging is not great for long-term battery longevity (fantastic source on that here: The Truth About Tesla Battery Degradation – and Other EVs - YouTube), so I'm not sure I'd want to see all charging move to 800v DC, but some mix of lower-voltage home DC charging (as long as the cost of such charging units can be brought down to reasonable levels) combined with a sufficiently high number of public rapid DC chargepoints would theoretically eliminate the need for onboard chargers. That being said, I'd hate to lose my granny cable...
 

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It is pretty well-known that high-power DC charging is not great for long-term battery longevity (fantastic source on that here: The Truth About Tesla Battery Degradation – and Other EVs - YouTube), so I'm not sure I'd want to see all charging move to 800v DC, but some mix of lower-voltage home DC charging (as long as the cost of such charging units can be brought down to reasonable levels) combined with a sufficiently high number of public rapid DC chargepoints would theoretically eliminate the need for onboard chargers. That being said, I'd hate to lose my granny cable...
There's a disconnect here: the DC voltage is dictated by the battery configuration and secondly by the state of charge. Charging rate is a function of current. Internal resistance of automotive Li Ion batteries is so low that voltage is not a primary charging rate control, certainly not between 800v and 400v.

So to put it bluntly, my 800v supercar won't charge on my domestic 400v supply, my Leaf will blow up if given 800v.
 

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So to put it bluntly, my 800v supercar won't charge on my domestic 400v supply
Actually it probably would, as current 800v cars ( Taycan, ioniq 5) have a voltage booster to allow charging on existing 400v chargers. New CCS chargers seem to be supporting 800v , so it could become more standard long-term.

my Leaf will blow up if given 800v.
Except both DC charging protocols include negoitiation for maximum voltage. Any 800v charger will be designed to suppor lower voltages. The CCS standards supports voltages down to 200V ( which incidentally is why few electric motorbikes have CCS, as their pack voltage is typically lower)
 

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Actually it probably would, as current 800v cars ( Taycan, ioniq 5) have a voltage booster to allow charging on existing 400v chargers. New CCS chargers seem to be supporting 800v , so it could become more standard long-term.


Except both DC charging protocols include negoitiation for maximum voltage. Any 800v charger will be designed to suppor lower voltages. The CCS standards supports voltages down to 200V ( which incidentally is why few electric motorbikes have CCS, as their pack voltage is typically lower)
Did I mention Taycan
 

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I've always thought that the on-board chargers would fall in price drastically as they become more integrated, to the point where all EVs have 3 phase on-board chargers up to 22kW. Three phase charge points seem the optimum to me - very little cost over a standard 7kW post, and can deliver a reasonable charge rate (only just over 4 hours for a big 100kWh battery).
 

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3 phase will work better in the UK if/when we have 3 phase wiring to our homes. It's common in the rest of Europe, not so much here.
 
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