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The slow demise of Chademo

9K views 66 replies 25 participants last post by  SuperLeaf 
#1 ·
Here in the UK, it looks like CCS is becoming the rapid charger connector of choice. Although there are 158 more Chademo than CCS connectors in the UK, that difference has been reduced by 73 in the last year (according to Zap-Map). I suspect there will be more CCS than Chademo connectors in a year or so. I'm not aware of any cars with Chademo connectors that can charge at more than 50kW in the UK. How long will it be before the majority of ultra rapid chargers stop installing chargers with Chademo connectors? It presumably makes no sense to pay a premium to use a 350kW charger to charge a car that can only take 50kW. 43kW AC charger installs have now slowed down to a trickle will the same happen to Chademo in a couple of years when there are no new cars using the connector?
 
#2 ·
The UK is using CCS because it was chosen as "the standard connector" by Europe before Brexit. IIRC, only Nissan, Lexus & certain hybrids still use Chademo.
This is the main reason why I scratched the Leaf from my shortlist when buying my first EV.
Even Nissan's next car, the Ariya, will use CCS here and Chademo in Japan.
 
#6 ·
I think with AC on cars now being 11kw and often 22kw it is possible AC might make a resurgence.

Chademo seems wounded really. I'd think the decline won't start for a few years and at some point there will be lots squabbling over CCS while Chademo chargers will be available all the time.

Perhaps someone can find a way of retrofitting CCS to an older Leaf or making some kind of adapter. It would seem a good way of extending the natural life of the earlier cars, especially ones that are only the slow AC not the 7kw.
 
#9 ·
Chademo seems wounded really. I'd think the decline won't start for a few years and at some point there will be lots squabbling over CCS while Chademo chargers will be available all the time.
Almost all public charger units, with the exception of Ionity, are double-headers and triple-headers so it's not like Chademo units will be more available than CCS ones.
 
#8 ·
The original Soul EV can charge at over 50kW on its Chademo connector. Think it’s meant to be 70-100kW peak although no personal experience of trying this out as never rapid charged it so far.
 
#18 ·
This from the CHAdeMO association. 15% is hardly market making. Of those 40% is one specific Chinese variant (ie, different). And a huge chunk of the total will be Mk1 and Mk2 Leafs.

I'm happy to be convinced it's the way forward but I don't see it.

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#20 ·
This from the CHAdeMO association. 15% is hardly market making. Of those 40% is one specific Chinese variant (ie, different). And a huge chunk of the total will be Mk1 and Mk2 Leafs.

I'm happy to be convinced it's the way forward but I don't see it.

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No one is suggesting it's the way forward. There is no reason to change the current twin or triple headed chargers for ones with only CCS or chademo, nor only install new ones with only one or other rapid charge port.
 
#22 ·
New provision will be in line with market demands. If you're putting in one or two rapids then it makes sense to have double/triple head units. If you're doing dozens then you'd have a couple with Chademo, rest just CCS.

With the Gridserve / Ecotricity partnership, I'm expecting replacements for the old units to be multistandard but the additional units past that to be CCS only. Why overcomplicate things when the vast majority of your customers will be on CCS?
 
#25 ·
Will the vast majority of customers be CCS though? CHAdeMo cars require charging more regularly. So far the evidence points to everything except Ionity being installed as CHAdeMo and CCS - and given only one car can use them at once in basically every case there's no real reason not to do that.
 
#31 ·
As the higher powered chargers cost more to use (15p / kwh for BP Pulse) it makes no sense to use them for a 50kW charging car unless you really can't get to another charger. I think the charger owners will look at the charging stats and decide if worth while including Chademo connectors. Clearly if they are used by 50kW charging cars they sell less electricity per unit of time and they would want to discourage this as the usage of chargers go up.
 
#64 ·
As the higher powered chargers cost more to use (15p / kwh for BP Pulse) it makes no sense to use them for a 50kW charging car unless you really can't get to another charger.
For contactless, it's 12p more on BP Pulse. In any event, it only makes no sense if you don't value your time. However, I've used 150kW units in preference to nearby 50kW ones, on the basis that the 50kW ones actually only provide 42kW maximum, whilst I know I get 48kW from the higher powered ones (before any tapering), meaning my charge from (say) 20% to 80% is quicker. Time is money as they say, and if I can save 6 minutes per charge then it's worth it. Of course if I was retired for example and had all the time in the world, then I'd probably think differently.
 
#36 ·
I wonder too if the phase out of AC at many new rapid chargers is to stop phevs clogging them up? I know Zoes can AC charge at 22 and some 43kW, but they are very much an outlier aren't they?
 
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#37 ·
Not just PHEVs but any slow charging vehicle. A number of new bigger battery PHEVs feature CCS charger connections.
 
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#40 ·
In my opinion, and this is from experience, cars should have both sockets.
For instance, if you look at the Leaf 40/62's charging sockets, you have Chademo and type 2. How hard can it be to fit a CCS combo instead of a type 2?

Going through France with the Leaf 24, most chargers installed at Auchan and Ikea only have Chademo and type 2. You also have access to Chademo at Nissan dealerships, where fitted and accessible.
I have seen a single fast charger offered by a French county, a new install, where the Chademo cable is not working and the CCS is.
I remember this one because it was a PITA in an area with scarce fast chargers https://fr.chargemap.com/parking-covoiturage-3.html
The big problem is, being practically one of very few CCS in the area, you're going to have to wait your turn.

So I can assure you that in France, and that is a big country in the middle of everything, Chademo is a bigger asset than CCS.


In Switzerland, I have noticed that the company Move Mobility is putting DC chargers on practically every highway parking area . I think that most of them are CCS only.
But it doesn't really matter, because you can find Chademo's all over Switzerland offered by Swisscharge, most of them off-highway, but also on-highway where it matters, like the Gottard Sud parking area. Switzerland is not a very big country, so even for a Leaf 24, you don't need more than 3 charges to cross it entirely, and there are plenty of Lidl's offering free charging.

In Belgium, most have both, so it's irrelevant.


In my opinion, it's not smart to standardise on CCS for the companies offering fast charging.
You invest 10+k Euro's on a fast charger, and then you're going to cheap out on a 500 Euro cable (wholesale) and plug to slash your customer base in half... that's the most stupid thing I've ever heard.

So IMO cars should have both and chargers should too.
IMO it's also ok if they use thinner cables for the Chademo and limit it to 50kw.

Also, with bidirectional chargers starting to be offered, Chademo offers some advantages.
Wallbox is offering the Quasar https://wallbox.com/en_catalog/quasar-dc-charger
Indra is offering this V2G Charger | Home Vehicle-to-Grid Charger | Indra
Delta V2X Bi-Directional EV Charger

People don't understand the use for these yet. But countries are moving agressively towards self-consumption and self-storage of solar energy.
In Belgium, the government has just abolished net metering (ie bidirectional electricty meters for homes with solar). This is going to happen everywhere.
People now have to purchase home batteries and a basic 13.4kWh Tesla Powerwall 2 setup is 10k euro's at least.
For 6k you can find a Leaf with 15kWh of capacity, but regardless if you happen to own any EV, you would want it to be able to power your home at night.

Nissan announced the Ariya with CCS, but at the price point of the Ariya, why should the customer have to live with their choices?
I don't think that a customer in France will be happy with CCS.
If you don't offer both, give the customer the choice.

As for Tesla, while they are selling the most vehicles in Europe currently, they would certainly want CCS to move forward so they can sell more Powerwalls.
But their opinion doesn't matter, because most Tesla users will fast-charge at a Superchargers 90% of the time.

So IMO the likes of Ionity and Move Mobility are the ones shooting themselves in the face with CCS-only chargers.
 
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