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Discussion Starter #1
Many of the longer-standing members of the forum will know that I owned a Nissan Leaf from 2010 right until 2016. I also owned a Vauxhall Ampera for a lot of that time too as my second car. When I bought my first Nissan Leaf I thought that it would mean no more fossil fuel cars for me... ever... however, a change of circumstances meant a change of priorities and needs with my car use profile which resulted in me reluctantly selling the EVs and changing back to an ICE. Basically, I needed more range that any EV that was on the market at that time that I could afford. So I have had an ICE for the past 3-4 years.

The good news is that I have now retired (not that I did a lot of actual work before!) and moved house and now I am able to consider an electric car again... hopefully switching for the last and final time away from an ICE.

I am currently looking at the Hyundai Kona or Kia e-Niro but the Kona is looking in pole position. The only thing that the e-Niro has over the Kona for me is a little extra space at the back and in the boot but if we can live with the smaller space in the Kona then I much prefer the Kona styling and so we are testing the Kona tomorrow.

I'll let you know how we get on and I am looking forward very much to getting back into an EV and once again being able to contribute more here and on-line in general.
 

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Have you consisered the 40/62kwh Leaf given there are some good deals on those currently or the Zoe 50?
 

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Worth looking at the new 64 kWh soul as well. It's in between the Kona and Niro in size. It's not quite as fugly as the old Soul either!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks.

Having had 2 Leafs (a 24kWh and a 30kWh) I really don't want to go back to one especially as I now consider the Leaf rather old-tech.

As for the Soul... hate the shape - sorry to those that have one :)

One of my primary requirements is that the car must have real-world range over 200 miles and there aren't many other EVs around apart from the Tesla and I don't want a Tesla.

Unless you can offer any other suggestions with a real-world range over 200 miles then I am stuck with the Kona or e-Niro I guess. Mind you they do look pretty good cars and I have had a Hyundai before and was very happy with it.
 

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Ok - having had two Leafs myself that is understandable! I am super happy with the Tesla and can't see myself going back to another brand unless something exceptional comes up.

Also, I understand that the build quality on the E-Nero is much better than that of the Kona so you may want to check that.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks. Yes, I read that too about the materials quality on the e-Niro vs the Kona. I didn't read that the build quality was down on the Kona just that the quality of the materials gave it a cheaper look and feel. I am not sure I like the centre console as much on the e-Niro and the Kona has snappier handling too if the reports are to be believed. I am not ruling out the e-Niro just yet but the Kona is currently in pole position.

I would not own a Tesla.
 

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You didn't ask for any advice, but here it is anyway:

If the boot space is your only issue then take one out for a test drive, drive home and load the car with what you can imagine to be the maximum load. It is much easier to get a picture of a car on your own drive way than at the dealer. In my case, I was in the opposite position, I wanted a smaller car than the one I had before, but I still wanted one which was big enough for holiday trips with my family as well as having battery capacity for commuting to and from work (I have a PHEV) since I have a few more years to retirement. So I spoke to the dealer and he said to take the car out for a weekend, test it any way I want and come back before closing time on Sunday, or opening time on Monday after. I drove back on Sunday, on Monday I ordered the car I have now (not a Kia or Hyundai)...
 

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Ok - having had two Leafs myself that is understandable! I am super happy with the Tesla and can't see myself going back to another brand unless something exceptional comes up.
You can't really compare the two, one costs twice the other... Never the less, I can't think myself buying a Tesla since the design (exterior and interior, as well as the HMI) is not my taste, even if the range is much better than our Leaf.

Also, I understand that the build quality on the E-Nero is much better than that of the Kona so you may want to check that.
Funny, I thought it was the opposite. Anyway, I like the possibility of having a three phase charger in the car, so that alone would be very interesting for me since it would allow home charging at 10.5kW. I don't know if the Kia can be charged also the same way, but that's a huge benefit when you have batteries of that capacity.
 

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You can't really compare the two, one costs twice the other... Never the less, I can't think myself buying a Tesla since the design (exterior and interior, as well as the HMI) is not my taste, even if the range is much better than our Leaf.
Actually a Tesla is around 20% more than the 62kwh Leaf and has better specs and range. Not relevant here anyway as Teslas are not in consideration.
 

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Nice to see you back @Paul_Moxhay.
I don't loiter here as much as I use too. I suppose once you have a particular EV that suits your needs you get fed up with listening to yourself.
After my lovely blue Leaf I leased a BMW i3 rex for 3 years and then added two more. Now I'm hoping I really like the Tesla model Y which may come to the UK before my 5 years are up.
Remind us why you won't have a Tesla.
 

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Welcome back @Paul-moxhay still miss the route planner you did. Good luck with the Kona, great EV if you can live with the size. The quality is good but the centre console did remind me of an amstrad hifi. But a really good EV in every other way that matters.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Remind us why you won't have a Tesla.
There are a few reasons...

I am not happy with the way the company considers that they only grant a licence to their software and so it is always under their control. This gives the company the ability, and possibly the right, to remove the rights of the owner to use their software at any time thereby rendering the car totally useless. This is one of the reasons that it is always going to be difficult to do anything with the car without the permission of the company. It is a controlling attitude that does not respect the fact that if someone spends that kind of money on a car then they deserve the right to continue to use it even if Tesla don't want them to for some reason. I know that this is a theoretical restriction that may never be enacted but it does mean that there is only so much that can be done to the car before it stops working rendering 3rd party upgrades and mods difficult if not impossible.

Then there is the company attitude surrounding their warranties and their willingness (or lack of) to honour them. There have been several cases where Tesla have not shown good customer service over disputed warranty claims.

I don't like the way that the company, and in particular Elon Musk, is so aggressively pushing automation. In one sense I can understand it... they are a software company (masquerading as a car manufacturer!) and so they want to leverage their core competencies and get a jump in the market. The thing is that I consider such an aggressive push as irresponsible at best and darn right dangerous at worst... and dangerous for all road users, not just Tesla owners. Automation will happen eventually, of course, and I look forward to it, but the challenge of Level 5 is so complex and the consequences of it failing so catastrophic that it demands a cautious approach. It seems to me that Tesla is willing to put automation to market long before it is proven and certainly long before the market is ready for it. In June 2019 Elon Musk publicly stated that it will have Level 5 autonomy by the year 2020. He went further to state that all Tesla’s will be able to act as robo-taxis and will be able to generate up $30,000 in revenue for it’s owners. He claimed Level 5 was 2 years away back in 2017. Musk claims that Tesla will have an extensive network of self-driving cars by 2020. Really? None of his predictions come close. We don't even have the regulatory framework for automation yet (insurance, traffic laws etc). Is it irresponsible for Musk to be making what I consider to be false claims to encourage the purchase of their cars. My personal opinion is that no one will achieve true Level 5 autonomy until cars are networked and that would require a degree of collaboration between manufacturers way beyond anything that has previously occurred. Remember, Level 5 means safe autonomous operation at all times and in all conditions! Quite a high standard to achieve and even more difficult to prove. My estimate is 5-10 years with 10 years being more likely.

Having said all that... I would be lying to say that I don't like the cars. I do! If the issues above didn't trouble me so much I could easily have one - especially a Model 3. I have been in a few now (Roadster, Model S, Model X) and to say that I am not blown away by the tech and the drive experience would be wrong and clearly there are a lot of Tesla owners very happy with the purchase and I would not criticise their personal decisions. So for me, a Tesla is not a car I want to own. It is a little like my attitude to the BMW i3. I would never own a BMW i3 for completely different reasons altogether... but that is a story for another thread! ?
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Welcome back @Paul-moxhay still miss the route planner you did.
I put the code into the public domain with an Open Source licence... no one, as far as I know, took that code to develop anything afterwards. I did think about re-hashing it myself and finishing it properly but it is a lot of work (the code that is there is not "production" quality and nothing more than a proof of concept really) and I am retired now!!! I'd rather hoped someone would take up the challenge.
 

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Actually a Tesla is around 20% more than the 62kwh Leaf and has better specs and range. Not relevant here anyway as Teslas are not in consideration.
I guess you compared the cheapest Tesla and the most expensive Leaf prices. I am not sure that for 20% more you'd get a "better specs" than the top model of Leaf, but yes, range looks definitely better. I am always a bit sceptic to the bottom range of any brand, especially the cheapest model, regardless if it is a BMW, Tesla or Nissan.

Edit: Just for fun, I made a very similar configuration of the two and ended up with the Tesla which is 40% more expensive than the Leaf. I think you are overoptimistic in saying 20% and not compared on similar way. Never the less, the Tesla has better range, even in the basic version, but the basic version is without some of the features the Nissan e+ Tekna has.
 

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I guess you compared the cheapest Tesla and the most expensive Leaf prices. I am not sure that for 20% more you'd get a "better specs" than the top model of Leaf, but yes, range looks definitely better. I am always a bit sceptic to the bottom range of any brand, especially the cheapest model, regardless if it is a BMW, Tesla or Nissan.

Edit: Just for fun, I made a very similar configuration of the two and ended up with the Tesla which is 40% more expensive than the Leaf. I think you are overoptimistic in saying 20% and not compared on similar way. Never the less, the Tesla has better range, even in the basic version, but the basic version is without some of the features the Nissan e+ Tekna has.
What features does the Leaf have that the Tesla doesn't? The only one I am aware of is the 360 view on the Tesla. Everything else is the Tesla seems to have a better spec: range, infotainment, sound quality, app, performance, looks, space, seat comfort inc electric adjustment, glass roof, supercharger access, etc.
 

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I am not happy with the way the company considers that they only grant a licence to their software and so it is always under their control.
You must be one of those people that just agree to all software licences then, without reading.

Maybe you'd like to point out how Tesla's software licence differs to ones for your computer OS or phone?
 

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I'll let you know how we get on and I am looking forward very much to getting back into an EV and once again being able to contribute more here and on-line in general.
Tell me to MMOB but noticed you said “we”. Is there something you haven’t told us, or perhaps I’ve missed? :unsure: In any case, glad to see you back and looking forward to your posts about your new EV ;)
 

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What features does the Leaf have that the Tesla doesn't? The only one I am aware of is the 360 view on the Tesla. Everything else is the Tesla seems to have a better spec: range, infotainment, sound quality, app, performance, looks, space, seat comfort inc electric adjustment, glass roof, supercharger access, etc.
It is the parking features and others. Even my current 2019 Leaf Tekna has the 360 view plus even other parts of what Nissan calls "ProPILOT" features is part of the Auto pilot package of the M3. Missing features are not just related to parking, but some serious driver assistant features, like lane keeping, automatic adaptive cruise control with stop and go, reading traffic signs, adjusting to speed limits automatically and so on. The winter tires (use is compulsory in Sweden during part of the year) is also extra in the Tesla and included in the Leaf (all models) but even if you leave that out, the Tesla is much more expensive. The basic Model 3 is basic. The Nissan is not offering autonomous driving in the future, but I dare say that this is the only feature which is not included in the Leaf, but that is part of the Tesla Auto Pilot, which I personally think is wrong of Tesla, autonomous driving should be a separate package.

Performance wise, no question about it, the Tesla beats the Leaf hands down, but come on, who cares? The Leaf is more than fast enough, and no Tesla user ever uses the extremely high speed because it will drain the battery after a few minutes. Same for the acceleration, it is really a very efficient battery drainer, but yes, the Tesla is fast and accelerates a lot better than the Leaf, and also, if the Tesla is driven not to race the Leaf, but to drive like the Leaf then the Tesla wins hands down in range, but at a price which is 40% more expensive the way I see it.

We could discuss forever if the infotainment is better, I dislike the single iPad glued to the center of the Model 3, it destroys the interior looks. In my opinion, that's a VERY poor design, and the way the HMI is designed is a major no-no for me. Also the leaving out of some major and often used control buttons which all can be controlled via the touch screen, but that's just why it is a poor HMI design. No, in my opinion, the infotainment is real poor in the Tesla, even if the screen is large. Regarding the sound... have you ever tested the Nissan Tekna BOSE sound...? I don't know how it could be beaten by Tesla (maybe, but I would not hear the difference), but I doubt that's a major issue for any other EV driver. App...? Which one do you refer to is missing? The car I checked has a 100kW charger on board, perhaps the Tesla is even better, but if it has a higher capacity battery it really needs it. Glass roof? I never understood the benefits of that, so for me it would mean paying for something I don't want or use. It does not make a car better, only different. Looks? Not for me, thanks. Taste is different, that's why I don't have a Tesla today, at least part of the reason why I went for a BMW PHEV last October and not the Model 3... I also disagreed with their license conditions, which have been mentioned by the OP as well in this thread. In my opinion, the conditions are totally unacceptable and would never buy a car which I don't own.

I think these arguments for and against can be discussed forever and we will probably never agree, but that's OK. Regardless of which, the OP seems well informed, so he will figure out which one to buy in the end, but based on my one year experience with the Leaf, I think it is a good car if you can live with the fact that the steering wheel can only be adjusted up and down. If we (my wife and I) will buy a second Leaf when it's time for change, I don't know. We will look at the market and see what's available, but it will not be a Tesla, that's for sure, unless the design and their policy is dramatically changed.
 
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