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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Sorry for the pun.

I've flirted with the idea of an EV/PHEV for a few years now - went the Lexus hybrid route a few years ago, as I didn't want to invest as much in an EV at the time, but eventually sold as the VED and MPG were the same as ICE.

I currently have an old XC90 that isn't worth a great deal. It also is likely to need stuff doing before its MOT. I have two young children, and these days I probably do around 4000 a year. I generally don't go much further than 10 miles away as a general rule, but will soon be starting a job where I'll need to commute roughly 50 miles e/w (via the M4) a few times a month (3 to 4 at most). The XC90 is a pre-DPF one, to ensure it doesn't get stroppy about local journeys, and VED is around £28pcm.

I was thinking that it may be worth picking up a 24kWh Leaf, whilst they are around the £5k mark. My thoughts were that it'd almost pay for itself over a couple of years (saving £300 or so VED, plus maintenance, plus fuel).

I understand some are BO and some are 'Flex', so I (possibly optimistically?) was hoping that something like this would fit the remit: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265197343104

I would no doubt have to be sure that there were EV charging facilities at the office, but does it sound feasible to do a ~50 mile e/w motorway trip in an older one? Is this a silly idea?
 

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Sorry for the pun.

I've flirted with the idea of an EV/PHEV for a few years now - went the Lexus hybrid route a few years ago, as I didn't want to invest as much in an EV at the time, but eventually sold as the VED and MPG were the same as ICE.

I currently have an old XC90 that isn't worth a great deal. It also is likely to need stuff doing before its MOT. I have two young children, and these days I probably do around 4000 a year. I generally don't go much further than 10 miles away as a general rule, but will soon be starting a job where I'll need to commute roughly 50 miles e/w (via the M4) a few times a month (3 to 4 at most). The XC90 is a pre-DPF one, to ensure it doesn't get stroppy about local journeys, and VED is around £28pcm.

I was thinking that it may be worth picking up a 24kWh Leaf, whilst they are around the £5k mark. My thoughts were that it'd almost pay for itself over a couple of years (saving £300 or so VED, plus maintenance, plus fuel).

I understand some are BO and some are 'Flex', so I (possibly optimistically?) was hoping that something like this would fit the remit: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/26519734310

I would no doubt have to be sure that there were EV charging facilities at the office, but does it sound feasible to do a ~50 mile e/w motorway trip in an older one? Is this a silly idea?
@cjx The ebay link is broken. £5k is a bit low though for a car with an expected 50 mile range in Winter. I have found that by far the largest factor in range is the ambient temperature of the battery. In my 30 leaf when the battery temperature on the display has 4 bars or less I can expect a usable range of about 70-75 miles. Outside temp. about -2 to +10 deg. Yesterday with 5 bars on the temperature guage I did a comfortable 95 miles. Outside temperature about 16deg.
50 miles is pushing it in the Winter for a 24kw leaf. It will be a nail-biting experience, with 2 young children a breakdown on a motorway in the middle of Winter within a couple of miles from home is not something I would like to contemplate.

I urge you to seriously reconsider this proposal.
Best of luck, Tony.
 
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Sorry for the pun.

I've flirted with the idea of an EV/PHEV for a few years now - went the Lexus hybrid route a few years ago, as I didn't want to invest as much in an EV at the time, but eventually sold as the VED and MPG were the same as ICE.

I currently have an old XC90 that isn't worth a great deal. It also is likely to need stuff doing before its MOT. I have two young children, and these days I probably do around 4000 a year. I generally don't go much further than 10 miles away as a general rule, but will soon be starting a job where I'll need to commute roughly 50 miles e/w (via the M4) a few times a month (3 to 4 at most). The XC90 is a pre-DPF one, to ensure it doesn't get stroppy about local journeys, and VED is around £28pcm.

I was thinking that it may be worth picking up a 24kWh Leaf, whilst they are around the £5k mark. My thoughts were that it'd almost pay for itself over a couple of years (saving £300 or so VED, plus maintenance, plus fuel).

I understand some are BO and some are 'Flex', so I (possibly optimistically?) was hoping that something like this would fit the remit: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/26519734310

I would no doubt have to be sure that there were EV charging facilities at the office, but does it sound feasible to do a ~50 mile e/w motorway trip in an older one? Is this a silly idea?
I wouldn't like to be doing a 50 mile motorway journey in the depths of winter in an old 24kWh LEAF, especially when you are relying on being able to plug in somewhere at the other side which may not always be guaranteed. You'd be really pushing it and probably going without heating if you have a bit of degradation on the battery.

I Personally wouldn't be doing it in anything less than a 30kWh LEAF with a decent battery. Maybe something like a Renault Zoe ZE40 instead and then you should be able to do a round trip without worrying about charging to simply make it back home... Though it sounds like this will be way out of budget.

As Tony has posted above me while I was typing this, the eBay link you posted is broken so we unfortunately can't see. But 'FLEX' is the word you are looking for to identify a battery leased LEAF. Thankfully they are pretty rare these days.
 

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It's not totally unfeasible, but you'd need to be 100% certain that you could access the charger at the office every day that you are there.

Make sure that any 24kWh leaf you buy is a sunderland-built car (2013 onwards. Any 63 plate or later should be sunderland, 13 plates could be either) with the newer battery chemistry as this is generally much better on long-term degradation than the earlier japan-built cars.

As barfly said, 50 miles motorway could be tricky in winter unless you're content to sit in lane 1 behind a lorry for 40 miles of it without much cabin heat going.

A 30kWh Leaf or a Kia Soul EV, around £9-10k would be a much easier proposition.
 

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Leaf24 depending upon its SoH should be good in summer though close in winter for a 50 mile trip. That said my Leaf30 manages 90 in winter but has been close recently


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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I wouldn't like to be doing a 50 mile motorway journey in the depths of winter in an old 24kWh LEAF, especially when you are relying on being able to plug in somewhere at the other side which may not always be guaranteed. You'd be really pushing it and probably going without heating if you have a bit of degradation on the battery.

I Personally wouldn't be doing it in anything less than a 30kWh LEAF with a decent battery. Maybe something like a Renault Zoe ZE40 instead and then you should be able to do a round trip without worrying about charging to simply make it back home... Though it sounds like this will be way out of budget.

As Tony has posted above me while I was typing this, the eBay link you posted is broken so we unfortunately can't see. But 'FLEX' is the word you are looking for to identify a battery leased LEAF. Thankfully they are pretty rare these days.
The Zoe is the most bizarre EV option though - you pay 10p a mile just to 'use' the battery, and then (for reasons I haven't fathomed) still pay the going rate of £5k+ for a battery lease one anyway. I can only imagine they are only an option if you aren't fussed about the economics of it?

I've updated the link. My thoughts were that a 24kWh one should be doing around 80 miles range, so 50 wouldn't be too much of a stretch?

The 30kWh+ ones are twice the cost, which isn't within the realms of cost justification really.
 

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@cjx
That car is literally up the road from me about a mile away. If you need any info or tips or want to borrow my dongle give me a pm or flick me an email [email protected]
Cheers Tony.
 

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2013 / 60k miles - I expect battery to be approximately 80% if not less. @Barfly can help you out with LeafSpy.

At 80% capacity. You will get max 80 miles from fully charged to dead battery. Real world range would be 60 miles - 65 in summer, winter would be sub 50
 

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I looked at a 2015 24kwh last week at that garage, it was horrible!
Did look at the black one, but it's a very early car with the light trim, so probably Jap built and worth avoiding. Wasn't in great condition either.
 

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If you are looking at an early leaf you could be into repairs as well as the battery degradation issues.

50 miles in winter from an early 24kwh leaf is a stretch I would think
 

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I've updated the link.
That's a japan-built car that will have the older battery chemistry (higher degradation than later ones) and no heat-pump (uses more energy to heat cabin in winter). I would personally not buy this car.

A colleague of mine bought a 13-plate sunderland built Acenta for £6200 almost a year ago, although he did suffer from a PTC heater failure with it.

The 30kWh+ ones are twice the cost, which isn't within the realms of cost justification really.
Indeed. On a purely cost basis, no. Over the longer term I think that a £9k 30kWh or Soul is a better buy, but if you'd don't have £9k to put to it then that's kind of irrelevant...
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
That's a japan-built car that will have the older battery chemistry (higher degradation than later ones) and no heat-pump (uses more energy to heat cabin in winter). I would personally not buy this car.

A colleague of mine bought a 13-plate sunderland built Acenta for £6200 almost a year ago, although he did suffer from a PTC heater failure with it.



Indeed. On a purely cost basis, no. Over the longer term I think that a £9k 30kWh or Soul is a better buy, but if you'd don't have £9k to put to it then that's kind of irrelevant...
I did look at the Soul, but it's climbing the cost ladder discretely isn't it!

The issue I have is that there's justification in getting a (for an EV) cheap 2nd car and using it for 75% of my car usage, but very little in doubling the budget unless it can also be good as a family/holiday type car (e.g. like the XC90, where we'll do a 200 mile trip with lots of stuff in the back). The closest you get to that is stuff like the Outlander PHEV, of which almost all under £10k are well into the 150k mile bracket, with Mitsubishi pulling out the UK etc.

For the most part, I think the EV market has really picked up in the last couple of years, meaning that the more basic EVs are at risk of starting to look very redundant. I wouldn't want to, for example, pay £10k for one over the next 4 or 5 years, knowing that in 2 years, with £5k still left on it, it would be in jeopardy of being a £5k car. If that makes sense?
 

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I did look at the Soul, but it's climbing the cost ladder discretely isn't it!

The issue I have is that there's justification in getting a (for an EV) cheap 2nd car and using it for 75% of my car usage, but very little in doubling the budget unless it can also be good as a family/holiday type car (e.g. like the XC90, where we'll do a 200 mile trip with lots of stuff in the back). The closest you get to that is stuff like the Outlander PHEV, of which almost all under £10k are well into the 150k mile bracket, with Mitsubishi pulling out the UK etc.

For the most part, I think the EV market has really picked up in the last couple of years, meaning that the more basic EVs are at risk of starting to look very redundant. I wouldn't want to, for example, pay £10k for one over the next 4 or 5 years, knowing that in 2 years, with £5k still left on it, it would be in jeopardy of being a £5k car. If that makes sense?
Can't argue with that at all.

The one thing that I'll say is that EVs are suffering much less depreciation than ICE vehicles and as more and more people open their eyes to EVs and leave ICE then I think that will continue to be true for quite some time. I don't think that "basic EVs will be made redundant" - middle class 2-car families with a big diesel SUV will do very well with a leaf 24 to cover the school run, the shops, commuting within 20 miles (which is most people's car commutes), etc. It's just that your commute pushes the boundaries of what the Leaf 24 can do.

Before we bought our first EV we looked at it and the idea was to spend £7k-ish on an early Leaf (this was in late 2017) to use as a commuting car alongside our Volvo V70 diesel. My commuting at the time (and now, when going to the office is a thing) was 25-mile round trip with a max speed limit of 50mph on the route (now I'm on motorways for a few miles, but still well within the capabilities of a leaf 24).

Then I learned more and more about early leafs and sunderland leafs and so the target became get a sunderland 24 acenta for about £8-9k. Then mission creep set in and I felt I couldn't be without heated seats (love me a heated seat) and we ended up buying (nov 2017) a 15-plate Tekna 24kWh for £11k (inc 2 years servicing, 2 years warranty, 3 years 0%). 19 months and 12500 miles later we sold it (june 2019) for £10650 to a dealer, and it came up for sale again earlier this year at 9k (SOLD - 2015 (15) Nissan LEAF Tekna 24kWh 3.3kW Charger...). So the depreciation of that car has been far less than an equivalent ICE model (eg focus, nissan pulsar, etc) over the same time period would have been.

So yes, the mission creep and choosing something for use as a second car etc is indeed something I'm familiar with. Ultimately you have to look at TCO - total cost of ownership. Depreciation, fuel, servicing, insurance, tyres etc. By that measure the Leaf was the cheapest car I've ever had because "fuel" worked out around 2p/mile, servicing was £0, depreciation was 2.8p/mile, etc. Our V70 was 16p/mile on fuel and 24p/mile depreciation (bought for 18500, sold for 7500, 46000 miles covered), let alone the thousands spent servicing it. In other words, depreciation can be the biggest factor and if your alternative to buying a leaf is a £1k ICE then that will probably be cheaper to run over the course of a few years barring any gross mechanical failure.

The other huge financial danger is what happened to us, whereby the Leaf was a gateway drug and resulted in creative man maths that justified a model 3.
 

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You should be able to pickup a Gen2 24kW Sunderland built car up to a couple of years newer with less miles for similar money privately. They make great cheap hacks for mainly local journeys. Longer journeys are fine to with a bit of planning.
 

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Do you have off road parking at home where you can have a charging point installed by where you park your car (or is there an on-street charging point by your home that you can use every night)? - if not, forget the idea.

Is there a Type 2 charging point at your 50 mile away place of work, and would you be staying there for at least 5.5 hours (3 hours if the car has the 6.6kW charger installed - rare on the early models) when you are there? If not, you will have to consider Rapid charging on the way home for every visit. Also, has the car got the big CHAdeMO charging socket under the charging flap (some of the more basic Leafs did not have this facility).

Are you getting rid of your XC90, or are you keeping it for longer journeys (and therefore would have it available for your 50 mile journeys in winter)?

50 miles in my 13 Reg Sunderland built Leaf is easily doable in Summer, but may be iffy in winter, especially on a wet (or worse still a snowy) day pushing into a headwind. Is there a services with Rapid charging facilities along the section of M4 that you will be using, where you could splash and dash charge if you were running a bit short [take a look at Zap-Map if you are not sure] - as you are doing the journey regularly you will soon learn how many %SOC you need to be able to pass such a services in confidence without stopping to charge.

If you can get a Leaf with the heated seats and heated steering wheel options so much the better as you can use these to keep warm without having to turn the cabin heating up too far.
 

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Can't argue with that at all.

The one thing that I'll say is that EVs are suffering much less depreciation than ICE vehicles and as more and more people open their eyes to EVs and leave ICE then I think that will continue to be true for quite some time. I don't think that "basic EVs will be made redundant" - middle class 2-car families with a big diesel SUV will do very well with a leaf 24 to cover the school run, the shops, commuting within 20 miles (which is most people's car commutes), etc. It's just that your commute pushes the boundaries of what the Leaf 24 can do.

Before we bought our first EV we looked at it and the idea was to spend £7k-ish on an early Leaf (this was in late 2017) to use as a commuting car alongside our Volvo V70 diesel. My commuting at the time (and now, when going to the office is a thing) was 25-mile round trip with a max speed limit of 50mph on the route (now I'm on motorways for a few miles, but still well within the capabilities of a leaf 24).

Then I learned more and more about early leafs and sunderland leafs and so the target became get a sunderland 24 acenta for about £8-9k. Then mission creep set in and I felt I couldn't be without heated seats (love me a heated seat) and we ended up buying (nov 2017) a 15-plate Tekna 24kWh for £11k (inc 2 years servicing, 2 years warranty, 3 years 0%). 19 months and 12500 miles later we sold it (june 2019) for £10650 to a dealer, and it came up for sale again earlier this year at 9k (SOLD - 2015 (15) Nissan LEAF Tekna 24kWh 3.3kW Charger...). So the depreciation of that car has been far less than an equivalent ICE model (eg focus, nissan pulsar, etc) over the same time period would have been.

So yes, the mission creep and choosing something for use as a second car etc is indeed something I'm familiar with. Ultimately you have to look at TCO - total cost of ownership. Depreciation, fuel, servicing, insurance, tyres etc. By that measure the Leaf was the cheapest car I've ever had because "fuel" worked out around 2p/mile, servicing was £0, depreciation was 2.8p/mile, etc. Our V70 was 16p/mile on fuel and 24p/mile depreciation (bought for 18500, sold for 7500, 46000 miles covered), let alone the thousands spent servicing it. In other words, depreciation can be the biggest factor and if your alternative to buying a leaf is a £1k ICE then that will probably be cheaper to run over the course of a few years barring any gross mechanical failure.

The other huge financial danger is what happened to us, whereby the Leaf was a gateway drug and resulted in creative man maths that justified a model 3.
@i-s
Just love that last sentence, gateway drug and creative man maths. Pure poetry. My problem is the lovely Jane has superior math skills and can spot any creative accounting on my part a mile away.
still grinning, Tony.
 
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If we take Leaf’s 3% degradation / year, we are looking at 72% SoH. I’d run as fast as I could


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Our 30kwh can easily do a hundred miles on a charge but I wouldn't really feel comfortable taking it further than 70 miles on a motorway given the state of the public charging infrastructure. It has 90.5% on its battery still.

I think the concesus is an early leaf 24kwh would probable struggle to do 50 miles in winter .

Really it's a good sized family hatchback so no issue in that regard Vs something like a Zoe in the same price range which is a city car only really.

It has a decent sized boot, the cabin space is similar to a Quasqui we had previously.

I paid £10k for a 16 plate Tekna from a Nissan dealer one owner 19k miles 90.5% battery start of this year as a second car. We use it for most of our driving. Probably 80% of our miles will be in it.

The savings on road tax, petrol, maintenance and reduced depreciation VS the ice it replaced is around £1500 - £2000 a year. If we did more miles the saving would be considerably higher. So providing it does what you need and you don't end up with expensive repairs there are decent savings to be had Vs a similar sized ICE for our purposes anyway. For short journeys and as a city car the range is likely to be fine for a number of years. I don't think the leaf is suited for long journeys holidays etc though.

I have an 18 plate Eclass Merc estate for towing our van on holidays and long trips to friends family etc. For us it's not practical to only have one car if that one car is an EV currently.

It will be a while until there is a large family BEV that can tow a van, do 300 miles and replace a large ICE family sized vehicle at a sensible price imo
 

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@i-s
Just love that last sentence, gateway drug and creative man maths. Pure poetry. My problem is the lovely Jane has superior math skills and can spot any creative accounting on my part a mile away.
still grinning, Tony.
Glad to raise a smile.

I'm the keeper of the purse strings, but my husband did agree to the purchase. In fairness to 2019 me, the tesla we bought is now over £3k more expensive and the leaf would have depreciated by £2-3k more also, so the switch would have cost a lot more later on. Getting out of the leaf at the point we did allowed me to bring all that capital forward into the Tesla. Lockdown savings mean that I was able to pay off the loan more than 4 years early and so the Tesla is fully owned now. It wasn't really justifiable on any financial level but it was the car I wanted, had wanted for a long time and still there's very little else I'd change it for (model y and Taycan cross turismo are about the only things, neither of which I can afford).
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I saw this https://www.press.renault.co.uk/en-gb/releases/291 and became intrigued by "Battery hire will start from £25 per month (down from £45) for the ZOE", but a dealer I enquired with suggested that the £45 for 4,500 miles is still the going rate (or buy outright for £3k).

For a 100 mile+ expected range, this roughly puts it at (dealer prices):

2016 Zoe (~40k) for £7k + £45pcm (10p/mile) for £10k battery owned
2016 Leaf 30kWh (~50k) for £10k battery owned

The Soul EV creeps in, but I realised the boot was tiny.
 
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