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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So as we are being constantly told CHAdeMO is being replaced by a European Standard called CCS, but I was under the impression that the European Standard is the type 2 Mennekes connector. Now CCS seems to be a type 2 with a DC plug crafted on the bottom.

So we now have two standards, if the charging stations are fitted with CCS how will a car with only type 2 AC charge, the plug does not fit so we now need charging stations with two "standard" connectors,

Now given the charging stations vendors are building three way charging points with the two standards plus CHAdeoMO why do we need to sunset one

Ideally they should sunset CCS and CHAdeMO and go with DC over the type 2 as done in the Tesla Superchargers
 

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It's not like there's any way they could see any issues with this sort of behaviour.

Nope, not historical references close to home at all.






It's sad but I think us consumers are going to have to sit on the sidelines and watch this all shake down while we directly spend our money backing one or another tech and governments spend the rest of our cash backing each and every standard, after the horse has bolted.

This guy sums it up for me: :confused:
 

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I was under the impression that the European Standard is the type 2 Mennekes connector. Now CCS seems to be a type 2 with a DC plug crafted on the bottom.
Type 2 is the AC standard and CCS is the DC standard. At the car you have a single connector that can accept either plug (see BMW i3) rather than two connectors on cars like the Leaf.

While it's perfectly possible to share connector pins for both AC and DC only Tesla have implemented that on a car today.

Now given the charging stations vendors are building three way charging points with the two standards plus CHAdeoMO why do we need to sunset one
Both CCS and SAE (US) standards use the same protocols so enormous economies of scale are possible.

Ideally they should sunset CCS and CHAdeMO and go with DC over the type 2 as done in the Tesla Superchargers
This does add cost at the car so unlikely today.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Type 2 is the AC standard and CCS is the DC standard. At the car you have a single connector that can accept either plug (see BMW i3) rather than two connectors on cars like the Leaf.

While it's perfectly possible to share connector pins for both AC and DC only Tesla have implemented that on a car today.

Both CCS and SAE (US) standards use the same protocols so enormous economies of scale are possible.

This does add cost at the car so unlikely today.
What happens if the charging station vendors all put up CCS stations and zoe or teslas (EU) users turn up the CCS plug cant fit

Why would adding cost to the car make charging station vendors less likely to deploy combined type 2?
 

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What happens if the charging station vendors all put up CCS stations and zoe or teslas (EU) users turn up the CCS plug cant fit
Same thing that happens today if you go to a CHAdeMO only location today... no charge :(

The 'simple' solution is to install a Type 2 socket Charging Station at all 'rapid' charging locations... this not only offers redundancy for broken rapid chargers but also means that every car can charge. Unfortunately, today we don't have the political leadership required to make this happen in the UK.

Why would adding cost to the car make charging station vendors less likely to deploy combined type 2?
Both the cars and Charging Stations must support the same technology. At the low end anything that adds cost to the car is unlikely to get designed in as standard equipment (good example is ~6kW charger on the Leaf).
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Same thing that happens today if you go to a CHAdeMO only location today... no charge :(

The 'simple' solution is to install a Type 2 socket Charging Station at all 'rapid' charging locations... this not only offers redundancy for broken rapid chargers but also means that every car can charge. Unfortunately, today we don't have the political leadership required to make this happen in the UK.
And there is the point I am trying to make, if your going to have a standard you cant keep changing it, the EU chose type 2 a long time ago, now is saying CCS, so all those poor sods who bought type 2 only cars are going to get screwed because BMW and the like put pressure on the EU to do something different.
 

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And there is the point I am trying to make, if your going to have a standard you cant keep changing it, the EU chose type 2 a long time ago, now is saying CCS, so all those poor sods who bought type 2 only cars are going to get screwed because BMW and the like put pressure on the EU to do something different.
Except all the existing Type 2 cars are AC and can't use DC for charging even if they could plug into CCS. It's inevitable that standards develop overtime and early adopters get caught out. I wish things had been different but the good news is that we do have European and US standards for AC and DC and they are compatible at a protocol level which will reduce costs overtime.

In 5 years I think this will be a non-issue which is amazing when you think 5 years ago every EV used a proprietary connector approach.

It wasn't that long ago that everyone got agitated by the move away from 13A sockets... today many people accept a Charging Station at home as a standard piece of equipment ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Except all the existing Type 2 cars are AC and can't use DC for charging even if they could plug into CCS. It's inevitable that standards develop overtime and early adopters get caught out. I wish things had been different but the good news is that we do have European and US standards for AC and DC and they are compatible at a protocol level which will reduce costs overtime.
So why not just use the existing DC standard that was already deployed, oh it was a japanese standard so "not invented here sydrome"

In 5 years I think this will be a non-issue which is amazing when you think 5 years ago every EV used a proprietary connector approach.
I agree and a large portion of the early adopters will give up as politics is more important than their wallets to people with no interest in EVs.

It wasn't that long ago that everyone got agitated by the move away from 13A sockets... today many people accept a Charging Station at home as a standard piece of equipment ;)
I still want to see 13amp charging stations as an option, at the railway station where your going to be for 8-10 hours or at the airport where your going to be days it makes sense not to install complex and expensive type 2 when a plug will do just fine, however politicians and their standards know best.
 

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I never want to see simple 13A sockets anywhere in a public setting. It makes absolutely no sense to me except as an absolute emergency standby at home or at friends and family if they don't have dedicated charging.

13A sockets are not designed for continuous high current loads like an EV. Neither is it sensible to put charging in that is so slow. Sure, sometimes people might be there for 10 hrs but then those charging locations are useless for shorter duration stays.

I am so glad that we are moving away from 13A for EV charging altogether... even at home. It will do nothing but hold us back instead of looking forward to faster charging and larger batteries.
 

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So why not just use the existing DC standard that was already deployed, oh it was a japanese standard so "not invented here sydrome"
IMO that's as much a failing of the CHAdeMO association and the Japanese car companies as it is the politicians and civil servants... CHAdeMO had a huge lead that has been squandered.

I've come to accept the standards even though I think we could have done much better (single connector for example)... hopefully Tesla will dominate the space and we'll all get rapid charging and the cars that we want at a price we can afford (sorry another reference to Tesla but I don't know what else to say :rolleyes:).

Going forward we need driver participation in the decision making process... having personally spent almost 4 years trying to make a difference I think it's time for other people to get involved :)
 

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I still want to see 13amp charging stations as an option
We are already beyond that point... OLEV won't fund them and the EU are likely to make them 'illegal' in the directive.

It really is time to look forward... we have Type 2 and CCS standards in Europe and if we all embrace them we'll have a much better experience as EV drivers :D
 

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I quite like the idea of every charging site having a backup 13A socket for emergency use, but it would be better to have type-2 charging everywhere, and places that will be long-stay have lower power settings (7A perhaps)
 

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it would be better to have type-2 charging everywhere, and places that will be long-stay have lower power settings (7A perhaps)
Agreed... remember that it's very easy for the Type 2 Charging Stations at a location to communicate and share the available power amongst themselves dynamically. For example when a car finishes charging it's power is available for someone else.. something you just can't do with a 'dumb' socket :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I quite like the idea of every charging site having a backup 13A socket for emergency use,
This is exactly what I have next to my tethered home charging station for that inevitable day something goes wrong and I need to plug in the EVSE
 

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This is exactly what I have next to my tethered home charging station for that inevitable day something goes wrong and I need to plug in the EVSE
sure but thats a private not a public location. You also need an EVSE to use it which is simply a portable Charging Station :)
 

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Hello everyone hope you don't mind me wading in on this one just joined this cracking forum. EVSE should be widely discouraged due to the fact it is a 13amp plug top that can be plugged into a domestic socket. Yes these are safe if the socket they are plugged into is a dedicated radial solely for EV charging use which would be pulling a good 3KW for 10-12hours. But I would guess at the fact a lot of people would plug these into a heavily loaded up ring main with possibly no RCD protection. Then you have the fact what happens if it doesn't reach. Oh hang on a second pass me that 15m extension reel. Pull 5m from it and leave the rest coiled up. Time to put the fire service on standby not the publicity EV's need if we want to see this industry grow even further.
 

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EVSE should be widely discouraged due to the fact it is a 13amp plug top that can be plugged into a domestic socket.
Assuming by 'EVSE' you mean portable Charging Stations then I think your stance is a little unrealistic given all of us use a OEM 'brick' EVSE to charge our cars on occasion. 10A charging from a 13A socket is perfectly safe and we have many Leaf drivers with 20,000+ miles who only ever charge on 13A sockets.

In Europe many drivers also use 22kW (32A three phase) portable EVSE on 'commando' sockets without incident and IMO this is perfectly safe.

I see from your profile that you are a reseller selling what I suspect are ROLEC Charging Stations. If that is correct could I ask you to add a signature to your posts?

See here for more information on the forum;

http://speakev.com/threads/commercial-posts-and-forum-members-with-commercial-interests.921/

Many thanks!
 

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Assuming by 'EVSE' you mean portable Charging Stations then I think your stance is a little unrealistic given all of us use a OEM 'brick' EVSE to charge our cars on occasion. 10A charging from a 13A socket is perfectly safe and we have many Leaf drivers with 20,000+ miles who only ever charge on 13A sockets.
Whilst I don't complete disagree with you Kevin on this point I don't completely agree either and I think that your comment needs a bit more detail to make sure people stay safe.

A 13A, 3-pin socket can be perfectly safe to charge a EV from using a portable EVSE cable. Either one that comes with the car or a properly home-built one. I agree with that. However, it must also be pointed out that if the socket or the wiring is old or in bad condition, or if the wrong extension is used or not fully unwound then it may be very risky indeed!

We do all charge our EVs using 3-pin sockets from time to time but the only really safe way to do it on the regular basis is if the 13A socket is on it's own circuit removing the chance of overload or overheating. I do charge at friends and families houses from time to time but I am cautious and always keep an close eye on the plug/socket and keep a look out for tell-tale signs of overheating. If I can do it without leaving it overnight then I do. If you know that the circuit wiring is new and recently tested then fine but not many people know that for certain and so using a 13A socket in a house, particularly on a ring main, where the condition is uncertain will always be a risk.

It is also worth mentioning too that extensions are another potential source of trouble. Many so called "13A" extensions are not rated at 13A, or even 10A, continuous load. They must also always be fully unwound before use when charging an EV as the loads will be high and continuous for many hours.

So I am not saying to anyone... don't charge using a 13A socket. Far from it. As Kevin says, those that can will want to from time to time. But it must be done with a degree of care. Make sure the wiring is in good condition and that extensions are correctly rated and fully unwound and then you won't set fire to the house!

If you are thinking about using a 13A socket at home on a regular basis then my advice is don't unless you get a dedicated circuit installed specifically for the purpose. It is currently free to get a EV charging station installed so why not do that instead... even your friends and family can get one too so if you regularly charge there then get them to install one for you to use when you visit.
 
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