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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Toyota will unveil what is expected to be a Rav4-sized BEV on April 19th.
There are also rumors about the solid state battery but this isn't certain.

With the huge hype around the recent launch of the amazing Mercedes EQS, can Toyota top it by announcing a game-changing solid-state battery concept?

The unveil is at 3:20am CET.

The teaser:


 

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Toyota will unveil what is expected to be a Rav4-sized BEV on April 19th.
There are also rumors about the solid state battery but this isn't certain.

With the huge hype around the recent launch of the amazing Mercedes EQS, can Toyota top it by announcing a game-changing solid-state battery concept?

The unveil is at 3:20am CET.

The teaser:


No they wont, SSB is vapourware, always jam tomorrow stuff.
 

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Are solid state batteries being manufactured and in use in other applications yet?

I thought they would follow a similar scaling process to other technologies, starting with small scale manufacture and niche applications and scaling up to mass production applications like EVs. Conventional lithium ion had quite a long and slow path towards the EVs today, seems unlikely that solid state batteries would do that in a single leap.

I suspect it will be an EV using conventional lithium ion batteries, building on the learning from the Lexus ux300e.
 

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Are solid state batteries being manufactured and in use in other applications yet?
I've seen them in ultra low power products - pacemakers, watches, that kind of thing. Can't remember if the products actually went to market in the end, but they were certainly pretty close.
 

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I've seen them in ultra low power products - pacemakers, watches, that kind of thing. Can't remember if the products actually went to market in the end, but they were certainly pretty close.
That's a very different scale to tens or hundreds of thousands of 50+kWh batteries for EVs. Besides if solid state batteries were at the point of being used in cars, wouldn't you expect to see them appearing first in Hybrids or PHEVs, where capacities are lower, rather than jumping in with huge EV batteries.
 

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That's a very different scale to tens or hundreds of thousands of 50+kWh batteries for EVs. Besides if solid state batteries were at the point of being used in cars, wouldn't you expect to see them appearing first in Hybrids or PHEVs, where capacities are lower, rather than jumping in with huge EV batteries.
Agreed. Just saying where I've seen them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Are solid state batteries being manufactured and in use in other applications yet?

I thought they would follow a similar scaling process to other technologies, starting with small scale manufacture and niche applications and scaling up to mass production applications like EVs. Conventional lithium ion had quite a long and slow path towards the EVs today, seems unlikely that solid state batteries would do that in a single leap.

I suspect it will be an EV using conventional lithium ion batteries, building on the learning from the Lexus ux300e.

It's not clear yet what will be unveiled.
It could be a BEV that will initially have li-ion and later on solid state batteries.
The solid state part could be an unveil in these sense of telling the world that solid state batteries are underway and will make li-ion batteries obsolete, in a bid to slow down li-ion BEV uptake and make people wait for a much better solid state battery.

"If you want a BEV today, we've got this RAV4 for you, but if you wait 5 years, we're gonna be able to offer you something much better".


Niche applications are already seeing the light.

 

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I've read several articles over the past few months about solid state batteries hitting the EV marketplace. General consensus from a few battery companies seems to point to 2025 at the very earliest before we see them in an EV for public consumption.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
That's a very different scale to tens or hundreds of thousands of 50+kWh batteries for EVs. Besides if solid state batteries were at the point of being used in cars, wouldn't you expect to see them appearing first in Hybrids or PHEVs, where capacities are lower, rather than jumping in with huge EV batteries.
No on the second part.
The SSB are such that Hybrids and PHEV's become obsolete too, because range and charging speeds will no longer be a factor.
SSB technology aims to double or treble the energy density and you basically get a battery that lasts a lifetime with minimal degradation.

The higher cost of the SSB technology would be mitigated by its infinite durability.
In theory, a battery would last you a lifetime. So you buy one and would never have to buy another one in your life.

There is potential because its energy density and fast charging ability makes it usable for aerospace applications and hence opens up to a whole new industry with lots of $$$.

The hard part is not scaling production.
It's finding the right chemistry through trial and error and be able to say: "Eureka, we've got it".
Once the right composition is found, scaling production would not be a limiting factor for world's largest auto manufacturer, even though it will take its own time to set up.
 

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SSB technology aims to double or treble the energy density and you basically get a battery that lasts a lifetime with minimal degradation.

The higher cost of the SSB technology would be mitigated by its infinite durability.
In theory, a battery would last you a lifetime. So you buy one and would never have to buy another one in your life.
Sounds like the technology would be wasted in cars, people typically change cars every 3-4 years and most cars are scrapped at around 13 years old. Cars are a fashion item, people throw them away long before all the components have worn out.

Energy storage would be a far better use because those could be kept in use for 30+ years.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Sounds like the technology would be wasted in cars, people typically change cars every 3-4 years and most cars are scrapped at around 13 years old. Cars are a fashion item, people throw them away long before all the components have worn out.

Energy storage would be a far better use because those could be kept in use for 30+ years.
First life as a car battery, second life as a home battery would make more sense.

13 years is reasonable for a ICE, but EV’s may peddle along for a while longer.
Most cars are junkyarded when they develop costly issues and those may stay out for EV’s. EV batteries are already being repurposed, so a battery that outlasts the car is not a problem, it’s an asset.


Also, if you look at how the newer Leaf batteries can be fitted to older Leafs, perhaps one option would be to carry your battery over from your old car to your new car, provided that compatibility is maintained.
 

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Oops, I misread the thread title. Very fitting that a Japanese company would consider making a solid SATE battery!
 

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First life as a car battery, second life as a home battery would make more sense.
It's a nice idea but I wonder how well it will transfer from theory into reality. The batteries will be in the cars until they're scrapped at which point most cars will have had several owners, the car will end life as a banger. Some will go to spares for batteries which have failed for other reasons, the chemistry might last for decades but connectors fail, casings crack and leak, electronics go bad etc. Who will be converting it to home energy storage? The final owner, the scrap merchant, the manufacturer? Not impossible but the logistics are unclear.

Also, it hugely depends on the manufacturer releasing the data needed to allow it be repurposed, there's also the issue around how scalable it is. Every manufacturer is designing their own batteries, with different voltages, different connections, different comms, different physical dimensions. That's a lot of conversion kits, and that's just if you use the pack as is.

13 years is reasonable for a ICE, but EV’s may peddle along for a while longer.
Most cars are junkyarded when they develop costly issues and those may stay out for EV’s.
I think this is wishful thinking, sure car engines and drive trains fail but cars are scrapped for issues which apply equally to an EV - rust, brakes, steering, bearings. Cars reaching the point where they're worthless and the final owner doesn't want to spend the money, rather than them being unrepairable.
 

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My guess is no sold state batteries... But if they have managed it I expect the specs to be slightly compromised. With either low energy density or lower than expected cycle life.

Edit: obviously we all hope Toyota have an ace up there sleeves. It would be great for EVs all round.
 

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I wouldn't hold your breath. The Tech Bang article says Toyota are hoping to come to market in 2025 and Nissan in 2028 so I would suspect 2030 in reality for both as these batteries have been promised for years now and nothing delivered. Therefore the Toyota teaser is either a concept car for 2030 and beyond or more likely another attempt at a hydrogen car.
 

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A tale of two carmakers: GM and Toyota take different electric roads in China
(Reuters article today)
A couple of paragraphs from the article relevant to this thread:
"Toyota, the world’s biggest carmaker, is set to unveil its solution at the Shanghai auto show on April 19: a new universal platform for electric vehicles (EVs) called e-TNGA that will underpin an array of models from small runarounds to large SUVs."
"It will also display its concept electric mid-sized sport-utility vehicle (SUV), based on the e-TNGA platform, which is set to be sold worldwide within a couple of years, two people familiar with Toyota’s plans said."

So hardly exciting news.
 

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I will be very surprised if Toyota have anything surprising to announce other than a car or two. The solid state battery is just vapourware they've been shilling to customers while they are behind everyone else getting an ev to market. I'd expect the Toyota to be the same as the ev lexus that's already launched.
 
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