Speak EV - Electric Car Forums banner

1 - 14 of 14 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hey everyone... I've been noticing recently that the way we talk about charging in Europe does not match up with the North American terms.

I think I've managed to line up the discrepencies, but if I'm wrong, please correct me as this is confusing when I see people on twitter and forums using these terms and I have to look closely at where they are from or what kw speed they are talking about to understand what they actually mean.

SpeedUSAUK
100-130v AC (any amps/kw speed... presumably up to 15 Amps in practice)

(Type 1 / J1772)
Level 1 Chargingn/a
208-245v AC up to 3.7kw / 16 Amps

(Type 1 / Type 2 connector)
Level 2 ChargingGranny Charger / 3 Pin / Standard AC Charging
208-245v AC 4-30 kw (up to 125 Amps)

(Unclear if this works on single phase above 11 kw, so presumably EU Type 2 3 phase above that)
Level 2 ChargingFast Charging
208-245v AC 40+ kw
(Probably 3 Phase 240vac, Type 2 Cable)
Level 2 / Fast Charging ???Rapid Charging
DC Charging (CCS/Chademo/Tesla/etc.)
Any speed 20-250+ kw
Typically 300-900vdc
DCFC aka DC Fast ChargeRapid Charging


My numbers are based on my own perception rather than any wiki article or official standard, so please correct me here!
 

·
Registered
Renault Zoe 50
Joined
·
18,616 Posts
They only major difference is if they charge at 110 volts - which we don't have.

Apart from that everything is the same (bar the different plug types). Note Tesla don't use Type 1 or Type 2 in the US.

Also, AC charging is generally limited to 11 kW or 17 kW for current generation of Teslas. So you can't really call this rapid.

Anything over 7 kW AC is generally 3-phase. Although in the US I understand they support up to 40 Amps on single phase. So 9 KW?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I guess it's also worth clarifying that Granny charging / wall charging Level 1 are both Mode 2 EVSE operation (except for early IMIEV and Renault Twizy which are Mode 1) and anything with a fixed charger is probably mode 3, but it would be called Level 2 in America and Fast charging in Europe...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
My main contention is FAST CHARGING does NOT mean the same thing from what I can tell on both sides of the Atlantic and this is absolutely confusing.
 

·
Registered
Renault Zoe 50
Joined
·
18,616 Posts
My main contention is FAST CHARGING does NOT mean the same thing from what I can tell on both sides of the Atlantic and this is absolutely confusing.
Why does it bother you? It can mean many things in the EU as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Why does it bother you? It can mean many things in the EU as well.
Because at some point I may move back to USA and when I research things there I find people throw out terms like 'fast' or amps without clarifying voltage... and it just seems like they all know what that means. I find it confusing as an EV owner, imagine someone trying to transition from a petrol vehicle who isn't interested in going full nerd like myself...

It also bugs me that the US hasn't gone for Type 2, because the Type 1 CCS port is an absolute monster kludge from the looks of things. Also 3 phase, there are business with 3 phase, would be an easy way to wire up faster charging in carparks.
 

·
Registered
Renault Zoe 50
Joined
·
18,616 Posts
I'd just ignore all those terms.

You're either on AC - in which case there's some sort of EVSE involved. Or you're on DC.

In either case the speed of charge will be determined by the local installation. For instance an AC charger could be anywhere from 3 kW up to 17 kW.

Similar issue with DC - it could be anything from 40 kW to 150 kW (or more).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,274 Posts
Anything over 7 kW AC is generally 3-phase. Although in the US I understand they support up to 40 Amps on single phase. So 9 KW?
The J1772 standard supports up to 80A 1ph. The original Tesla Roadster would go up to (IIRC) 16.5kW (70A 240V), and the Model S Dual Charger to 19.2kW (80A 240V), but Tesla discontinued that option.

As far as I am aware there are no US standards for 3ph charging, this is generally because 3ph outside of industrial environments is rare. The only reason we have 3ph charging in the UK, given we don't generally have 3ph domestic supplies, is because Type2 is a European standard and as such is designed to take advantage of our continental friends 3ph domestic supplies.

Where 3ph supplies are made to a building in the USA, it is common to tap off between two phases to get 208V phase-to-phase so you will see some odd 208V charging systems sometimes, though I understand those to be quite rare.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Also the other thing
I'd just ignore all those terms.

You're either on AC - in which case there's some sort of EVSE involved. Or you're on DC.

In either case the speed of charge will be determined by the local installation. For instance an AC charger could be anywhere from 3 kW up to 17 kW.

Similar issue with DC - it could be anything from 40 kW to 150 kW (or more).
I really could care less the amps personally, I want to know the total kw being delivered, which is something people do a great job of communicating in Europe, regardless of AC or DC configuration.

Also AC charging for Zoe is up to 43kw, so the AC charge could be way over 17kw... but again, requires 3 phase.

And I've seen chademo as low as 20kw, and the standard allows for slower charging as well (I think you can get as low as 8kw), so not exactly cut and dry.
 

·
Registered
Renault Zoe 50
Joined
·
18,616 Posts
I really could care less the amps personally, I want to know the total kw being delivered, which is something people do a great job of communicating in Europe, regardless of AC or DC configuration.
Actually they don't.

It's very common to see a charger rated to say 150 kW, but it will output much less due to the Amp limit of the charger and the voltage of the battery pack.

Power = Volts x Amps
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Actually they don't.

It's very common to see a charger rated to say 150 kW, but it will output much less due to the Amp limit of the charger and the voltage of the battery pack.

Power = Volts x Amps
I take your point with DC rapids... but AC is pretty consistent, no? Obviously it's simple math, but mains voltages are more consistent than that of battery packs.
 

·
Registered
Renault Zoe 50
Joined
·
18,616 Posts
Also AC charging for Zoe is up to 43kw, so the AC charge could be way over 17kw... but again, requires 3 phase.
Zoe is a special case really.

You can only charge at 43 kW AC on a Rapid Charger with a 'Q' car. You'd know if you were at one and it would have a tethered cable.

Any other time it would be up to 22 kW.
 

·
Registered
Renault Zoe 50
Joined
·
18,616 Posts
I take your point with DC rapids... but AC is pretty consistent, no? Obviously it's simple math, but mains voltages are more consistent than that of battery packs.
Still no I'm afraid. Some AC points share power between them or are not clear about the power they supply. They also vary a lot. You can have a single phase or three phase cable, which will also affect the power you can draw.

With the Zoe you could guess the power - it would only display estimated time to charge fully.

AC points can still be limited by battery temp, although not as bad as DC.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Still no I'm afraid. Some AC points share power between them or are not clear about the power they supply. They also vary a lot. You can have a single phase or three phase cable, which will also affect the power you can draw.

With the Zoe you could guess the power - it would only display estimated time to charge fully.

AC points can still be limited by battery temp, although not as bad as DC.
Ok fair point... I tried using a PodPoint charger last week and expected it to be 3.7kw for me @ 16amps, because the post is rated 7kw... but then turns out I barely got 10amps off of it, despite there basically not being any other cars on the other chargers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cah197
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
Top