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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Seems to be "bash self driving day" on the internet. Personally I'd never be willing to turn on any of the current gen "self-driving" tech as it simply isn't safe, but others see things differently. Thought these were interesting articles though...

"Brennan thinks the concept of autonomous vehicles that can drive anywhere under any conditions is still possible, but much further out than originally thought. They will require huge financial investments — “11 figures” by Brennan’s estimates — and a willingness to tolerate zero cash flow until the technology is mature and safe enough to launch. There are only so many companies with deep enough pockets to take on that challenge: major car companies like Ford, GM, and Volkswagen or tech giants like Apple, Alphabet, and Intel. Everyone else is probably not long for this world.

The mid-level engineers always knew this to be true, Brennan said. It was the CEOs who were making the erroneous predictions about the availability of self-driving taxis by 2020. “I think the CEOs of those companies knew that they were going to be playing golf by 2020,” he said"


from this article: The autonomous vehicle world is shrinking — it’s overdue - The Verge

" An image of a plant on a t-shirt is hardly ever identified as a plant because algorithms focus on people and don’t expect a plant to be on your abdomen. Anything round pictured near a dog, they explained, is often identified as a frisbee because computer vision systems corelate dogs and flying disc toys. "

from this article: Researchers say objects can hide from computer vision by seeking out unusual company that trips correlation bias • The Register

and this from California as recently as March just gone on the FSD beta with Tesla:




 

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I drove a Tesla Model 3 for 20,000 miles in six months everyday and can say with absolute certainty that the Tesla idea of self-driving is close to being absolutely bloody lethal even on US freeways where the job is easier than anywhere else in the world. It was a gimmick that I tried a few times then got so pissed off with its incompetence and all the problems it throws up on every trip that I just stopped using it. I can not understand why the cult of Tesla worshippers still go on and on about the greatness of musk and continue to worship the company as the reality falls very far short of all the bullshit.

I was excited as hell to find out that the car I had been given to use was a Tesla and really looked forward to driving it as it was like a dream come true. Within a month I would gladly have swapped it for something that actually worked properly and was built as well as a Japanese car costing less than half the price. The constant stream of updates that bring more bugs than they fix got to be really infuriating for me when all I wanted was a car that worked all the time and did not constantly change and throw a hissy fit for no good reason. If Tesla record all the sounds from the car then they will have some choice ones from me as I did not ever drive the car with out swearing at it for doing something unexpected. The most common recording Tesla have from the cars is almost certainly why the F has it just done that?
 

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It was interesting in the video how it seemed to put the occupants at enhanced risk at times (like nearly veering into oncoming traffic) to give pedestrians and cyclists a wide berth.
 

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I'd have no interest in a self driving car. This comes down to how much do you value your life. If we stay with Elon Musk and Tesla for just a minute, he's a sociopath driven by firsts, whether that's technology, wealth, science or indeed the kudos. Remember he demanded his 10,000 Tesla employees in California returned to work at the plant at the height of the pandemic when the state policy was to remain in lockdown. If anyone wants to get in the back seat of one of his cars while on a motorway or freeway, then they'll quickly confirm Darwin's theory of evolution which results in their demise in a fireball.
 

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Oh the usual tropes we get on these threads.

Good luck out there meatbags!
 

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Self driving cars - would I drive or ride in one? No way.
I don't like my Leaf's steering assist. I can't see the point for a start. If I needed it to keep me on the road, I should not be driving.
We need driver aids because humans kill so many on the roads, they can’t be trusted.

You of course are perfect and never make any mistakes.
 

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LEAF N-TEC 62KW
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Oh the usual tropes we get on these threads.

Good luck out there meatbags!
Hope your Life Assurance is adequate to pay for a lifetime of care when your self driving vehicle turns you into a paraplegic.
Why would you risk a life changing injury to yourself, let alone a family member or other road user?
 

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We need driver aids because humans kill so many on the roads, they can’t be trusted.

You of course are perfect and never make any mistakes.
When the technology is perfect, then fine. But that is years away, and no technology will ever be reliable enough for me to trust my life to it.
Better driver training is the answer.
 

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There have been some interesting debates about this over the years on SpeakEV, but there have also been loads of bun-fights…

I really don’t like the word ‘Autopilot’ to describe Tesla’s driver assistance/self driving tech, it immediately gives the impression that it’s capable of far more than it actually is. I’m sure it’s contributed to a fair few human induced accidents as a result, but then the related technology itself has probably saved lives too.

Better driver training is one thing, but more than that perhaps people will need some kind of ‘type approval’ for a particular vehicle going forward. This is the tech, this is how it works and this is what it can and can’t do, sort of thing.

I think that anything a vehicle can do to stop the fallible idiot behind the wheel killing themselves or others is welcome, I think we’re already seeing the benefits of that with automatic emergency braking and lane keep systems etc.

Fully self driving? It’s clearly not a mature technology that’s even 99% reliable in every scenario it might encounter, so until it is I don’t think we’ll see it rolled out anytime soon.

We’ll see more elements of it implemented over the next few years, and it will help make the roads a little safer overall as a result, and that’s a good thing.

A blanket limited top speed of 40mph and a big spike on the steering wheel instead of an airbag would probably save even more lives though…
 

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I've been driving for 50years and have 'written off' two cars (no injuries). I'd like to see how an autonomous vehicle copes with a blind junction or a tyre blow out.
I also narrowly avoided a 'head on' with a motorhome driven by a driver from Europe. His instinct was to swerve to the right whereas mine was to swerve to the left - ie directly into his path. However I made a split second decision to keep right and just squeezed between him and a parked Transit pick-up. (the motorhome driver pulled out to pass it without looking) I cannot see any technology making the correct decision or steering with the required precision. Drivers who had been following the motorhome stopped and praised my driving and said how they were expecting a major collision. (I was doing 60mph at the time)
 

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There have been some interesting debates about this over the years on SpeakEV, but there have also been loads of bun-fights…

I really don’t like the word ‘Autopilot’ to describe Tesla’s driver assistance/self driving tech, it immediately gives the impression that it’s capable of far more than it actually is. I’m sure it’s contributed to a fair few human induced accidents as a result, but then the related technology itself has probably saved lives too.

Better driver training is one thing, but more than that perhaps people will need some kind of ‘type approval’ for a particular vehicle going forward. This is the tech, this is how it works and this is what it can and can’t do, sort of thing.

I think that anything a vehicle can do to stop the fallible idiot behind the wheel killing themselves or others is welcome, I think we’re already seeing the benefits of that with automatic emergency braking and lane keep systems etc.

Fully self driving? It’s clearly not a mature technology that’s even 99% reliable in every scenario it might encounter, so until it is I don’t think we’ll see it rolled out anytime soon.

We’ll see more elements of it implemented over the next few years, and it will help make the roads a little safer overall as a result, and that’s a good thing.

A blanket limited top speed of 40mph and a big spike on the steering wheel instead of an airbag would probably save even more lives though…
The other issue I have with it, is that it does nothing to improve driver skill and experience.
So maybe you need a different driving licence:
Full or Autonomous vehicles.
 

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The problems with self driving is it only works in nice predictable conditions, other than the boot full of computers research systems.

Take the the Kia LFa system. It’s relatively primitive by some standards but it works very well on major roads. It’s great on the motorway until there’s a bit of work being done on the hard shoulder and narrow lanes with yellow markers. The system cannot interpret the lanes at this point and completely stops working. This sort of situation, common on our roads, is incredibly challenging for an automated system to follow.

What most of these “self driving” systems do is backasswards. They take over the basic driving and require the human to be actively paying attention. If there’s one thing that people are bad at it’s paying attention, especially if they’re asked to simply supervise an automated system.

This is precisely why that car ploughed into the woman crossing the road in the US (I forget which company was operating it) because the driver was bored and started doing something else.
 

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There are two major problems I can forsee in introducing self-driving vehicles to UK roads: the first is that the roads themselves are not "designed" they are the legacy of 100's of years of unplanned growth. As a simple example, the only way to emerge from a major side road onto our local high street is to smile at oncoming drivers in the hope that they will let you cross - how would a self-driving car handle that? How would it know the other driver intends you to violate the "rule" that you shouldn't drive through a gap in oncoming traffic? It would be OK if all vehicles were self-driving and connected to each other but that is decades away. The alternative is to invest massively in traffic controls at every junction.

The second issue is who would take responsibility when things go wrong? The driver? The car dealer? The car manufacturer? The driving software developer? The insurance company? The government who set standards? You only have to look at how air crashes result in finger pointing between those involved (I rewatched "Sully: Miracle on the Hudson" this week) to imagine the complexity of assigning responsibility. Lawyers will have a field day.
 

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If self driving gets good enough then sure

bear in mind we are comparing not just to us perfect examples of careful drivers, but also the tired taxi driver, the learner driver, the boy racer. Both being driven by them and driving amongst them.

In theory a car should have a constant awareness of the space around it - if avoiding action needs to be made it knows exactly if it can swerve left/right because it knows if there is something there - probably better than we would.

obviously a mountain to climb but let’s see.
 

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The problems with self driving is it only works in nice predictable conditions, other than the boot full of computers research systems.

Take the the Kia LFa system. It’s relatively primitive by some standards but it works very well on major roads. It’s great on the motorway until there’s a bit of work being done on the hard shoulder and narrow lanes with yellow markers. The system cannot interpret the lanes at this point and completely stops working. This sort of situation, common on our roads, is incredibly challenging for an automated system to follow.

What most of these “self driving” systems do is backasswards. They take over the basic driving and require the human to be actively paying attention. If there’s one thing that people are bad at it’s paying attention, especially if they’re asked to simply supervise an automated system.

This is precisely why that car ploughed into the woman crossing the road in the US (I forget which company was operating it) because the driver was bored and started doing something else.
This is very similar to the situation of airline pilots. Someone once described their lives as, “Years of boredom interrupted by seconds of terror.” They are highly trained, and constantly refreshed, in what to do in an emergency. Is it realistic to expect this to happen for the average driver?
 

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Something we will see is increased pressure to change the environment to better suit automated vehicles. I’ve seen suggestions that all pedestrians should carry some sort of tag to indicate presence. This clearly won’t work and is part of the problem @richardwg highlights. Same as my example of the temporary narrow lanes on the motorway.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
It was interesting in the video how it seemed to put the occupants at enhanced risk at times (like nearly veering into oncoming traffic) to give pedestrians and cyclists a wide berth.
Yup. It's this willingness to risk your own life and limb to be an unpaid beta tester that baffles me. Probably the same personality type that likes to take selfies with steep cliffs behind. People are just the weirdest!
 
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