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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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Discussion Starter #1
The whole point of the type 2 connector is currently being thwarted.

Type 2 provides a 3-phase connection. The purpose and idea of 3 phase is that the chargers would be simpler - basically a glorified connection to the industrial AC mains (just like home chargers to domestic AC).

The whole principle is that this would mean thousands of 3 phase chargers could be put up for the price of hundreds, or even dozens, of DC chargers.

This reality/EU dream simply isn't happening. The three phase outlets are only going up as PART OF DC chargers. This is bonkers and turns the whole point of 3 phase chargers on its head, and therefore the type 2 connector is equally redundant. The ONLY car to take high power 3 phase, the Zoe, is even being downgraded to 22kW now, and so the reality of today isn't going to change for just one car model that is already downgrading its own charging capability.

The lack of take-up for 3 phase AC charging should, in theory, kill Type 2. It was a nice idea by the EU to mean that 3-ph AC charging points would be cheap to install and thus proliferate, instead the car owners would take on the cost of the chargers. That doesn't seem to be happening.

In fact, I would imagine the whole direction of EVs could easily go the other way - instead of having connections to the mains and rectifiers on board the car, have EVs that are purely DC chargers and instead you fit a DC rectifier-charger on your wall at home. This way, mass manufacture will kick in and the price will come down for those, whilst saving the on-board costs, simplify design, reduce vehicle mass and avoid maintenance issues.

There's nothing wrong with J1772. It is designed for 80A/400V so could handle 32kW itself. I think it is a very good compact plug and relatively cheap to manufacture. It should endure, if logic has anything to do with reality.
 

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Exactly my point.

What Renault are essentially saying is that they cannot get 43kw inverters to work well at 16 or 32A and Zoe owners (who charge most often at home / work) experience slower charge times.

By moving to a 22kw inverter they are saying that actually the difference between 0 to 80% on 43 and 0 to 100% in 22 is not massive, and worth the trade off.

Seeing as it was incompatibilities between Zoe & DBTCEV that was whacking RCs in the UK and a HUGE effort is going into to fixing these issues (and others) as we speak it's kinda ironic that the announcement came at the same time
 

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I can't see the manufacturing cost of Type 1 / J1772 and Type 2 being much different.

Type 2 also provides the flexibility of 3 phase (if you want it) without requiring another cable.

Further there are no plugs or sockets defined for Type 1 / J1772 (it only supports tethered leads) while Type 2 has the full range of socket, plug, vehicle connector, and vehicle inlet so a Type 2 socket outlet can be used by vehicles regardless of what their inlet is (Type 1, Type 2 etc.); whereas a Type 1 / J1772 system can only be used by Type 1 / J1772 vehicles.

I can't see any reason to prefer Type 1 / J1772 over Type 2 in Europe including the UK.
 

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But what if and I do doubt this but what it next gen BEVs are double or more the capicity of today's and all cars come with 22kw charging and charge points are easily upgraded. I'm not saying this is the case but 7kw isn't going to cut it.
 

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Not sure if I'm following along correctly. I get confused with Type 2 Plugs/sockets and type 2/3 charging.

But hasn't Tesla proven that the Type 2 connector is capable of handling 120+ kW in a more compact package than the frankenplug.

I think someone in another thread speculated on the Type 2 standard being updated to include the way Tesla are currently using it on superchargers.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
OK, so I am not going to suggest that the plug design cannot be made to work in some as yet unapproved way for better things, so I guess the physical design of the plug has further potential. But the 'type 2' as a 3 phase protocol is currently dead in the water, and the only car using it is going backwards in its requirements.

I suspect Tesla are actually running fast and loose with the mennekes design/protocol and might actually be making themselves vulnerable to some design copyright issue suit, but no-one will complain if they are increasing its usage and expanding the possible applications for it - maybe that's already been hammered out behind closed doors. I agree that's a different matter altogether to take the plug design and use it in alternative ways, such as with DC power.

So to clarify there are two issues - the 'mennekes' plug design may have a future in a world of higher power charging, but it looks to me that the original reason for the Type 2 3-phase AC charging protocol has come to an impasse, if not a dead-end.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Just a second thought - if high current DC charging was to be permitted via the mennekes plug, why does the CCS standard need the two DC pins?
 

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Model S takes 3 phase over Type 2. The design of the MS charger limits it to 22kw at the moment. People have 3 phase Type 2 installed at home all over Europe. 22kw is also a lot more common in public chargers on the continent than it is in the UK.

CCS is a quick and dirty solution to adding DC charging to Type 2. As mentioned above, it could become a dead end, to be replaced by Tesla's solution. The quicker this happens the better, but it still needs to be ratified as a standard and not sure if anyone is even looking at doing this.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Model S takes 3 phase over Type 2. The design of the MS charger limits it to 22kw at the moment.
I'm aware of that which is in the Type 2 protocol. But it must be taking 120kW by drawing DC on the lines, which is not.
 

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But what if and I do doubt this but what it next gen BEVs are double or more the capicity of today's and all cars come with 22kw charging and charge points are easily upgraded. I'm not saying this is the case but 7kw isn't going to cut it.
Correct. I think that we must face it that not a whole lot is going to happen from a battery technology front for the next generation of cars. This means that like the Tesla Roadster the next generation of LEAF etc will simply have bigger batteries (40ish in the LEAF)

When we get to this point then even 7kw is going to start looking slow and the use of 22kw much more sensible.

As for plugs, it really matters not but we cannot sensibly continue with the mish mash that we have right now.

If, as seems likely Tesla have gained their SuperCharger performance by simply stacking 22kw chargers and then controlling their allocation based upon load demand from the cars being charged then doing likewise seems to me to be a sensible option.

Good points however made about the idiocy of converting AC and DC and that this could be best done at the charger rather than the vehicle.

Good points also about Tesla's custom T2 mods.
 

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I commented on another thread about 7kw chargers not being enough if battery capacities increase. I can see some public criticism of money spent on "outdated" chargers.
 

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And thinking about it, unless the Tesla connector/charger combo has got significant issues, I can see it becoming the standard. Why? High capacity, redundancy, relative simplicity and on a beacon brand.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Will tesla give it for free though? I doubt it but could be wrong.
Give what for free? The idea of putting DC through the mennekes connector. Gee, never have thought of that!

Looks more like they have already taken something for free, as that might conceivably be infringing on some plug copyright.

I like what tesla are doing, but the hype seems to be exaggerating it by an order of magnitude (if the share price is anything to go by).
 

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Tesla uses the phase for 22kW domestic charging and 120kW DC for supercharging over the same plug. They have to because using high power single phase in some European countries is a bureaucratic headache. It's just much kinder on the grid.

Many other German cars are using type 2 for domestic three phase. The standard isn't going anywhere
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Tesla uses the phase for 22kW domestic charging and 120kW DC for supercharging over the same plug. They have to because using high power single phase in some European countries is a bureaucratic headache. It's just much kinder on the grid.

Many other German cars are using type 2 for domestic three phase. The standard isn't going anywhere
I'm not sure what this is saying different to above?
 

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But what if and I do doubt this but what it next gen BEVs are double or more the capicity of today's and all cars come with 22kw charging and charge points are easily upgraded. I'm not saying this is the case but 7kw isn't going to cut it.
22kW is deliverable via 3 phase AC on a Type 2 connector but would be ~95 Amps on single phase AC which is not supported by any standard. So 22kW AC is a pro-Type 2 arguement. It's also really only a public charging arguement as the vast majority of homes can't support anything like this.

Any move to 3 phase from single phase in the UK could increase installation costs significantly as many locations would require upgraded supplies which, in extreme, might mean a new cable all the way back to the substation if on a single phase leg.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I could see a future where new housing developments have the full 3 phases run around the area together, rather than branching out. Maybe not necessarily install the 3 phase supply, but make it ready to be delivered for domestic use.

I'd still not be particularly inclined to think it is important - for most day to day activities charging while you are asleep at 3kW is plenty and if you are doing a long run then use a rapid. Hence, there is very little real value in having 3 phase charging as it requires substantial electronics on the car to rectify and filter that sort of power. Only Renault carry such large smoothing components in that they are re-using the coils in the motor as rectifier inductors. Only Renault can currently play that trick.

So even if we could get 3 phase AC to houses, I still don't see the value in having high power 3 phase on board charging.
 

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I'm not sure what this is saying different to above?
That type 2 is a better design, not obsolete, and people are looking at this from a very UK centric point of view (or US). Type 2 does everything type 1 does and much more.

3kW is not plenty for filling a Tesla Roadster overnight now, yet alone the new battery. Same for Model S. I want to go to a hotel and get a full recharge, not wait until lunch the next day.

As for three phase in housing developments, I'd be amazed if it isn't in your road now. You just can't put many houses on one phase. The whole distribution grid, save for a few isolated rural houses, is three phase.
 
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