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Outlander
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a standard Type 2 to Type 1 cable for untethered chargers.

However, I am finding a new hurdle emerging in public charging. Today I tried to a 7kw free public charging bay (paid for by a local council) and to my annoyance it was a tethered and Type 2.

Just tried searching for a converter but the ones I found have male/female the wrong way round: not sure who those are targeted at?

In either case, has anyone seen the converter that I would need to plug-in my car with a Type 1 socket?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
This is a helpful example of the continued degradation and disintegration of the UK's public charging network: Tethering one cable is a degradation, creating a need for converters is a degradation, and having a new gap in the market to fill is degradation. How can humanity hope to fix the problems it has already created if all humanity can do is create new problems..
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
It's an effect of standardisation, which causes some short term pain in exchange for long term gain.
Oh no its not! The more common untethered type 2 sockets is the de facto standard for public chargers that is well established and supported by practically every EV. In contrast, needlessly tethering a Type 2 plug, at additional cost, with no added value, is entirely non-standard! It is the polar opposite of standardisation because it reduces the number of compatible cars. Needlessly limiting the compatibility of the free charger presumably convenient to the council employee who authorised that particular charge point installation, and with short-sightedness because higher usage of a shared cable will increase breakage rate (resulting in an out of order charger) and there is a good chance their own replacement future EV will have a future type of socket. It is just another example of the quality of decision making within our [redacted] civil service.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
@Rbrian. Somehow I suspect Apple (catering to US customers) is trying to have something faster and more convenient than USB-C in place by 2024. It might be as simple as this: iPhone 15 Pro Rumored to Feature Thunderbolt Port With Significant Advantage Over Lightning. Watch as future European consumers are caught smuggling "better" iPhones from the USA (or UK).
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
Was there not an untethered charger as well? For example, the chargers the council has installed across Oxfordshire are mostly type 2 tethered but there's at least one untethered unit at each site as well.
Oh that's a whole other rant! There were privately operated untethered chargers near to the free tethered chargers.

I normally avoid private networks because they frequently do not work, and they each have frustrating learning curves, but as I had driven an extra two stories to get to the EV area I decided to try today.

The chargers were lit up green and I plugged-in, and the car detected something to negotiate with. However, their "EB Go!" app had a number of usability issues and faults: There was insufficient 4G signal inside the multi-storey car park and (slightly amusingly) according to security who could see me on CCTV I spent 45 minutes walking back and forth between my car (no 4G signal) and the exit barrier (a 4G signal) trying to make it blasted mobile app activate a charge.

I managed to get the car, charger, and bank card registered. In the workflow I got as far as pre-authorised, and the app stated the bay was working, but each time I tried to activate the charge the "EB Go!" charger did not respond positively (maybe it did not detect my car, or maybe it had a network fault) and short end of the story is that the charging would not start.

When finally giving up I had the uncomfortable choice of ICEing the bay (optionally leaving the cable in and at risk of being stolen) or leaving the socket pre-authorised for the next person to pick my pocket! Thankfully I don't think anyone else tried to walking around to get a mobile signal to install the app although I don't know how long until the pre-authorisation times out :(

Edit: Just checked the app. Charging history shows two sessions, both cancelled with 0kw used.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
Point being, there are decades (and several generations) of EVs with Type 1 sockets in circulation. I doubt its very hard for manufacturers to swap the sockets (as demonstrated by there being Chinese adapters of low complexity) but the big problem with changing is that Type 1 (2008-present) remains the only plug that has ever been a global standard. Afaik, there is no Type 2 in Japan and there is no sense in Japanese car makers equipping their cars with a socket that is not supported so every Japanese car for the foreseeable future is going to be equipped with a Type 1 socket.

To be awkward the EU, China, and Tesla each wanted to set their own standards: Their only common goal was to be different to Type 1, which has resulted in different types of Type 2 plugs (EU and China look physically the same but the pin-outs and ratings and compatibilities are different, and Tesla has proprietary standards with Type 2 adapters).

My understanding is that the Type 1 remains the industry standard for AC charging outside of the EU, China, and Tesla. Not sure where the UK is going but Brexiteers seeking independence of foreign influence should not be backing any of the Type 2s ;)

P.S. I have a 2017 Outlander, and that is not very relevant as there are older and newer cars of various marques and origins with Type 1 sockets.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Local authorities should be held to account for wasting public money buying things they don’t understand.
Amazing! Wasting public money is a breach of the Civil Service Code of Conduct!
 
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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
This is a bit disingenuous. The reason the Type 2 connector is preferred over the Type 1 in the EU is because of the prevalence of 3 phase supplies there compared to other parts of the world. The Type 1 connector doesn't have the pins for that, so the Type 2 exists.

It wasn't just to be different for the sake of it.

Is the Type 2 overkill for most single-phase supplies in the UK, or even for home charging on three phase? Yes. Does it offer a tangible benefit over the Type 1? Arguably yes, especially for use in destination chargers if your EV has an on-board three phase charger.
Thank you for elaborating. I clearly know little about standards in EU, and I suppose a UK local authority could be encouraging EU tourists to bring their own EVs to their city but if that means UK drivers cannot plug-in then I am going to whinge! ;)

Not sure why the Germans could not adapt Type 1 output to support phase 3 input.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Fortunately Rapids have tethered chargers which sadly seem to suffer the same fate ......
Indeed. In 5 years I have not come across a working CHAdeMO. I recall one was always smashed where the incompatible EVs had driven over the plug, and the others just haven't worked :(
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Socket: less convenient for the majority, perhaps very difficult for some disabled drivers.
Usability among disabled drivers is a very valid discussion point for a public benefit such as a free charger, but disabled drivers tend to need bigger bays with more freedom of movement so until corrected I will suspect the problem resolves itself when all factors are taken into account.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
A few facts:
  • The Type 1 and Type 2 specifications are the work of an international standards development process: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_61851 and are both global standards (where's this 'has ever been' come from). They are variants to support single phase and 3-phase AC charging. 3 phase is common in much of Europe, so you need a 3 phase connector to get a reasonable charging speed and 3 phase is needed. With a good enough supply you can get 22kW - though most houses don't have that good a supply and so cars tend to be limited to 11 kW 3 phase, 7 kW single phase (and additional engineering and economic drivers lead to this). The US (and I think Japan) only support slightly weedy single phase (they need special connectors for more powerful domestic appliances) so Type 1 makes sense for them. UK cars, surprisingly, tend to go over the channel at times, so anything other than type 2 would be fun. There's nothing in any of this about being 'different' for the sake of it - just reasonable engineering decisions.
  • Most Japanese cars sold into Europe now come with Type 2 CCS. Even the Nissan Ariya. None will have a Type 1 socket and it won't be a problem for them. EV manufacturers seem to have reached the point of fitting the appropriate socket for each region they ship to, and I think there are only 4, including covering DC charging.
  • The Chinese are the ones that introduced their own non-standard standard, late in the game.
  • I think (happy to be corrected) that the only EVs with Type 1 connectors ever sold in any volume in the UK were the Nissan Leaf and the Mitsubishi Outlander. It's been clear since well before 2017 that Chademo and Type 1 AC connectors would not become the standard in the UK. We bought a ZOE, rather than a Leaf, in 2017 partly for that reason.
  • According to evdatabase there NO cars still being sold in the UK with Type 1 connectors. Even the Leaf has been sold with Type 2 CCS for a couple of revisions.
  • If I drove an Outlander then I don't see how this is a problem at all. The car has another socket that takes liquid propellant. Why spend hours trying to connect to an isolated tethered 7kW charge point?
Sorry, but this quote is complete drivel because the UK charge networks today are for the UK cars today that are actually on UK roads today and that park in actual UK bays today. All of your nonsense about the French & German national grids, and how EU houses are often limited to 11kW, or whatever else you conjure up, will be irrelevant to driving in the UK.

If you drove an Outlander PHEV and you question why Outlander PHEV drivers would refuel with electrons rather than petrol, then you are in the wrong forum. You are the driver who gives Outlander PHEVs a bad name. I am glad you don't drive one anymore.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 · (Edited)
EU needed three-phase AC support, so that means that anything based on Type 1 or Tesla's proprietary North American connector was out (not enough pins in the connector).
China's GB-T wasn't ratified at the time, so Mennekes Type 2 it was ,and hence Type 2 CCS.
There were a number of Smart cars produced that had the reverse-gender GB-T style connector produced, before the Type 2 connector was standardised.
GB-T AC connector is a reverse-gender of Type 2, but yes, they have the different signalling as well as the standard pilot signalling, so their equivalent of Plug & Charge is a thing.
For DC, GB-T has a lot of similarities with Chademo, and as such the next version Chaoji, aka Chademo 3.0 will be the same, and older vehicles will need adapters because the connector design is different.

Think yourself fortunate you're not in Columbia, where some of the charging networks have decided that for DC charging it should be Type 1 CCS, or Chademo, but AC charging should be Type 2 tethered. That doesn't make sense.

New Zealand and Australia went through the confusion before their governments set standards, because a lot of vehicles in those countries are grey market imports. Now they're Type 2 / CCS as default. BMW did a free retrofit of vehicles they had imported when they had assumed that Type 1 was going to be standard in NZ, and this made life easier for the public charging networks (for a small inconvenience of retrofitting some older charge points with type 2 CCS connectors)
Africa is Type 2, with a smattering of GB-T for chinese imports.
South America is mostly Type 2, with a smattering of GB-T for chinese imports for things like buses.
Indonesia and Malaysia is Type 2.
Middle east is Type 2, except for Jordan, which doesn't seem to have a standard.

Type 1 is only actually officially declared as required standards in North America, Japan and South Korea. The rest of the world is Type 2-based, or GB-T, or if you're in India... Good luck... There's even more standards to choose from there for charging electric rickshaws etc, but the normal-size cars are Type 2 / CCS, or GB-T.
Japan has Type 1 / Chademo, North America has Type 1 / CCS.
Ukraine had no defined national standard, so the public charging stations there are a bit unweildy having way too many connector variants. What will happen after the dust settles remains to be seen, but they're more likely to align to the EU standards given that they've put in an application to join.
We can put this to bed. I have been corrected (many times) in this thread on a German business need that led to the Type 2 plug being developed for German cars. Repeating the correction will not add value. What might add value is explaining why German engineers were unable to feed the Type 1 plug from their Type 2 sockets.

Regarding the real world UK issues, whatever happens in Germany simply does not transfer to the UK charging network because the UK charging network exists to cater to UK cars (with a large number of already sold cars of Japanese origin), and the UK charging network generally meets all requirements by providing Type 2 sockets that work with Type 1 or Type 2 plugs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 · (Edited)
Socketed type 2 are also completely unusable by an unknown number of plug-in drivers who don't have a type 2 cable.
You are bluffing! I know of no car that cannot use a Type 2 socket: Even a Scottish Aviation Scamp or Enfield 8000 (240v 50Hz 13A for 8 hours) could be plugged-in to a type 2 socket (by changing the plug or adding an adapter). The only unknown is the number of British citizenry who are unable to source or use a cable (of any kind).


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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
... about 50,000 Leaf, 10,000 e-NV200, and a smaller number of Mitsubishi i-MIEV and its clones; some PHEV models, and a continuing trickle of imported used vehicles from Japan ("JDM" for Japanese domestic market).
There were more than 50,000 Outlander PHEVs on UK roads in 2020, over 1,000 Vauxhall Amperas, and a handful of Ford Focus, Toyota Prius +, etc. The order of magnitude is over 120,000 Type 1 cars.
 
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Discussion Starter · #46 · (Edited)
Because mixing phases is not trivial if the Type 2 is wired for three phase.

You could just take L1 and N and pass those to a Type 1 plug, but then you're only drawing off one phase and could be limited to a much lower charge rate unless each of the three phases is able to offer 7 kW by itself.

This is a bit of a bodge, but it's basically what the current adapters do. If the Type 2 socket is single phase, this works and can pass all of the capacity to the Type 1 plug, which is also single phase.
I need more information to follow you.
  • We do exactly as you describe in the UK, USA and Japan with zero difficulties and it transmits all the power that UK, US and Japanese phase 1 mains can supply: It is compliant, safe, and reliable (not a bodge).
  • Though most Type 1 configurations are 3kW (13A), I once read in the standards that Type 1 plug is rated to maximum 11 kW (45A).
  • Regardless of the supply all the energy is converted to a DC; there is no EV car that stores energy as AC phase 3 and significant energy conversion is unavoidable.
  • My understanding is that 3 phase means 3 wires (1 phase means 1 wire): 2 or 3 wires can be combined into 1 wire by various mechanisms (e.g. single phase converter). Why resist conversion from AC 3 phase to AC 1 phase when conversion to DC (1 phase) is unavoidable? Can you quantify the extra efficiency loss?
  • If a Type 1 plug can deliver 11kW, then it could be plugged to a maximum of 26A on phase 3, which seems perfectly within tolerance of EU 3 phase electricity supplies. It would appear there was no engineering constraint that necessitated a 3 phase plug for the EU: So unless that is a substantial efficiency loss in 3 phase to 1 phase it appears the EU simply created a novel market standards to exact political control (as it so often does).
  • In any case, at a practical level all of the EU shenanigans have been irrelevant in UK, USA and Japan because these regions rely on phase 1 supplies. As the UK is now outside of the EU, why is any emotional hoo-har for a 3 phase plug (with redundant copper that will never transmit energy) persisting?
  • If you are environmentally conscious, why use a cable that contains up to 66% unusable materials?
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
No, I'm simply saying that many people with plug-in hybrids don't have a type 2 cable at all. That means they cannot use socketed chargers without the expense of buying a cable and why would they do that when they can just plug in to some rapid with an AC cable and trickle charge at 3.6kW?
How do they plug-in without a cable?
So giving them access to slower tethered AC chargers makes a lot of sense and benefits everyone.
Untrue because tethering the AC charger blocks that charger for a lot people, and thus is clearly not a benefit to everyone!
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 · (Edited)
@Mark I , your post is helpful for providing accurate information. I remain confused, however, as to why any of the information you provided necessitates a different plug.

When we plug into a Type 2 socket at a UK charger, we have 2 wires ignored (at the socket) because there is nothing feeding them and we have 1 remaining wire feeding the plug: The end result is the same for Type 1 and Type 2 plugs. The car charger operates off 1 live wire and the Type 1 plug has overcapacity (240v 80A).

When plugged into a Type 2 socket at a German charger, why can a cable not merge 3 lines (at the socket) into one line (at the plug) with the car charger operating off 1 live wire? Would that not be simpler? Is retaining 3 phases from socket to plug also demanding avoidable over-engineered complexity from the car's AC to DC converter?
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
Anyone who's ever accidentally (or otherwise!) shorted from L1 to L2 or L3 will be able to tell you what happened.
Whatever the tale is, as they lived to tell the tale it cannot have been a total disaster.
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 · (Edited)
There's no trivial way to take all three phases from a Type 2 3ph socket and "join them" into one conductor ... The only solution is to just connect to one of the three phases ...
If the 3 phases cannot be combined, then by logical inference the cars with Type 2 plugs are not combining three phases: To draw on three wires do the cars carry three distinct AC to DC converters, and three batteries?
The 3 phases feed separate chargers on a 3 phase car, the dc output is put together to charge the battery.
Oh ok. So three DC feeds can be combined, and three AC feeds cannot be combined? Apologies, I am trying to follow with near zero knowledge of electrical engineering and rationalise what with WWW content:
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 ·
The 3 phases will go bang if simply connected together!
That's not what I read here: "In a three phase ... In case of an unbalanced load system (which leads to unstable voltage and unexpected current which may lead to system failure and even there is a risk of electric shock as well), the neutral is used to return the unbalanced current to the source of supply voltage.", which implies to me the three can be combined and the inconsistency sent back to the grid. Surely the returned load is small and the German grid not excessively inconsistent!? How to Wire Combo of 3 & 1-Φ, 400V/230V Distribution Board?
 
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