Speak EV - Electric Car Forums banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
127 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
It’s possible this may be moved to the 2-wheeled forum, but as it’s really about chargers I’m giving it a go putting it here :)

As well as an EV car driver (e-Golf), I am also a motorcyclist and looking at my options for potentially getting an electric motorcycle. I like doing long-distance touring with my bikes, so I need something that I can charge en route to my destinations.

Of the two bikes I have narrowed it down to (Energica EsseEsse 9 and Zero SR/S), one charges via CCS in 20-30 mins (or Type 2 in 4+ hours at 3kW), the other charges on Type 2 at 6kW in 2 hours or 12kW in 1 hour if you option extra onboard AC chargers.

Now, one of these is better because it’s faster, but the other is better because the per-kWh rate is probably cheaper. So let’s say for the sake of argument those advantages of each cancel each other out (maybe they don’t once you weigh it up, but for the sake of argument let’s say that they do).

This leaves me with, which is the better choice in the UK and Europe in terms of charger availability? My preconception is that CCS is better, because new CCS chargers are going in all the time and they are more likely to be located at stop-off places, rather than destinations. In other words, if I want to stop off somewhere for lunch on a trip I’m more likely to find a CCS there than a Type 2. My feeling is that, with most cars now coming with CCS, more money is going to go into putting CCS chargers in to places and Type 2 will gradually die out with these chargers falling into disrepair and not being replaced.

However, perhaps that is an unfair preconception based upon the fact that I personally tend to use public CCS to charge my e-Golf more than public Type 2. Maybe if I was more conscious of Type 2 availability in the UK and Europe I wouldn’t have that view.

So thought I’d throw it up here to see what you all think. If I’m going on a long-distance trip through the UK/Europe, ignoring charging speed and focusing only on location/availability, will Type 2 be a better bet or CCS over the next few years?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,200 Posts
7kw type 2 posts are fairly common, but not always "enroute", there are more often found in car parks and the like. "12" kw is an odd number for a EV charger, so you might want to clarify that. 3 phase 16a is 11kw, but three phase posts are a bit less common, not always as obvious excepting rapids, but sitting on a rapid for over an hour charging at 11kw is likely to piss people off.

So i think your right, CCS is better, and more commonly found in service stations and other places your likely to stop while enroute.

Additionally, the optional charger on the Zero stops you adding the bigger battery doesnt it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,200 Posts
The SR/F has a potential of 3 chargers on-board tied to different phases in EU. The standard edition has a 3kW unit. The premium edition has a second 3kW unit on a separate phase. If you order the premium addition and add in the Rapid Charge system (previously known as the Charge Tank) for ~$2400 USD if I recall, that adds a 6kW charger on top of those for a total of 12kW. That will be tied to the third leg of the Mennekes Type 2 plug. This means, in Europe, the bike can charge in the following ways:

  • Single Phase: 3kW
  • Using 3 phase 11kW station: 9kW (the charge tank halves itself)
  • Using 3 phase 22kW station: 12kW
So found that, which suggests that it does indeed do 12, but achieves it in a particularly odd way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
127 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Surely the bike with CSS also charges with Type 2 on AC?

1 hour charge on the Zero seems reasonable in any case.
The bike with CCS charges on Type 2 at 3kW (so, 4 hours+, not realistic for a stop-off charge), the 1 hour charge on the Zero is only at the maximum 12kW, so would depend on finding a Type 2 charger that supports this.

7kw type 2 posts are fairly common, but not always "enroute", there are more often found in car parks and the like. "12" kw is an odd number for a EV charger, so you might want to clarify that. 3 phase 16a is 11kw, but three phase posts are a bit less common, not always as obvious excepting rapids, but sitting on a rapid for over an hour charging at 11kw is likely to piss people off.

So i think your right, CCS is better, and more commonly found in service stations and other places your likely to stop while enroute.

Additionally, the optional charger on the Zero stops you adding the bigger battery doesnt it?
Basically, the Zero comes with a 6kW onboard AC charger. You can add an extra 6kW AC charger as an option to take it to 12kW total, but you’re right that it’s an either/or choice as to whether you add the extra AC charger or the bigger battery.

For that reason, and with the dearth of Type 2 chargers that go above 7kW, I would probably choose the bigger battery. Which means the Zero I would actually get would charge in about 2 hours.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,338 Posts
For that reason, and with the dearth of Type 2 chargers that go above 7kW, I would probably choose the bigger battery. Which means the Zero I would actually get would charge in about 2 hours.
I find quite a few with my Zoe. But they’re generally at shopping centres rather than on the motorway.

Depends where you’re trying to go.

In any case CCS with a backup 3 kW AC on Type 2 seems the best of both worlds.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
127 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I find quite a few with my Zoe. But they’re generally at shopping centres rather than on the motorway.

Depends where you’re trying to go.

In any case CCS with a backup 3 kW AC on Type 2 seems the best of both worlds.
I guess maybe I’m not factoring in that a lot of rapid chargers have Type 2 plugs on them as well as CCS anyway, so it’s not like I couldn’t charge the Zero at a rapid charger if there weren’t any standalone Type 2 posts around.

Do you expect to continue finding high powered Type 2 connectors on your travels, or do Zoe owners worry about those dying out in favour of CCS? I guess my worry is that I’ll end up in a situation where, if I keep the bike for 5 years, all the chargers I’ll find will be old, unreliable ones due to the new ones being exclusively CCS. Maybe paranoia though?

CCS with backup 3kW on the Energica probably is the best option, though, truth be told, I’m looking for an excuse to consider the Zero as I prefer a lot of other things about it :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,133 Posts
As Type 2 requires an onboard charger on the bike, and CCS doesn't, the size/weight saving for not including the OBC might make sense on a a bike - no idea if any bikes currently do this though, and I'd be surprsied if there are many, if any, bikes with >7kW OBCs due to teh increased size & weight
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,338 Posts
Do you expect to continue finding high powered Type 2 connectors on your travels, or do Zoe owners worry about those dying out in favour of CCS?
I think 43 kW AC will eventually die out.

But there seem to be more and more three phase AC about. A lot of rapids have an AC port that will supply 22 kW even when the DC side is in use.

It was very useful for me over the summer.
 

·
Registered
Renault Zoe ZE50 GT-Line Rapid Charge
Joined
·
1,945 Posts
I guess maybe I’m not factoring in that a lot of rapid chargers have Type 2 plugs on them as well as CCS anyway, so it’s not like I couldn’t charge the Zero at a rapid charger if there weren’t any standalone Type 2 posts around.

Do you expect to continue finding high powered Type 2 connectors on your travels, or do Zoe owners worry about those dying out in favour of CCS? I guess my worry is that I’ll end up in a situation where, if I keep the bike for 5 years, all the chargers I’ll find will be old, unreliable ones due to the new ones being exclusively CCS. Maybe paranoia though?

CCS with backup 3kW on the Energica probably is the best option, though, truth be told, I’m looking for an excuse to consider the Zero as I prefer a lot of other things about it :)
Something to consider is that AC chargepoints tend to be just a socket, as in "bring your own cable".
With an electric motorbike, you'd have to make room for one in a top box or pannier.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
211 Posts
What Wonko said is most relevant -> and exactly what I was going to say. A type 2 cable of even 2-3m length is a non-significant weight to carry on back or on bike, and would be needed for most 7kw sockets. Personally I'd go CCS just to avoid this when not at home.

Other related thing is I see 3 phase AC decreasing in use -> yes Zoe uses today, but long term, I suspect we'll see many CCS only chargers (or CCS/Chadamo), alongside 7kw dest charge sockets (I know why Ionity is CCS only, but I suspect we'll see other providers adopting this in future, given legally there is no requirement for Chademo). The days of finding 3 phase AC with attached cables are already near gone (Geniepoint doesn't do this now, they have a 22kw socket, again others seem to be adopting this (FastNed in NL) - due to the 3 phase attached cables being misused by PHEV's). I suspect it'll take longer than Chademo to disappear, but I do think the war has been won here... CCS is the fast charging standard. AC Type-2 is the slow charging standard to 7.2...

If I was in market for a electric motorbike, personally I'd go CCS for above reasons (and I note i say this without yet looking up the 2 bikes you mention).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,133 Posts
Obviously the disadvantage of CCS-only is you can't charge at home, though longer-term I see no reason a 7-10kw CCS home charger wouldn't be feasible at a cost of maybe US$3-4K.
The smallest I can immediately find is a 15kW unit for $5300, though it's not clear if this needs a 3-phase supply.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
162 Posts
Do you expect to continue finding high powered Type 2 connectors on your travels, or do Zoe owners worry about those dying out in favour of CCS?
Yes, as a Zoe owner, a lack of 22kw AC chargers definitely concerns me.

It's not been an issue yet, but if they do start to become scarce then we'll have no choice but to use our ICE for long journeys - having to stop for 5-6 hours per charge en route isn't exactly practical
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
127 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Thanks all, this has been really interesting.

So I think for a number of reasons the Zero SR/S would be my preferred bike. I believe it has a built-in compartment for a short Type 2 cable. I can get that with,
  1. 12kW Type 2 charging and, say, 70-80miles of motorway range, or
  2. 6kW Type 2 charging and, say, 90-100miles or motorway range due to the bigger battery they can put in if they reduce the number of onboard AC chargers.
Backup option is the Energica EsseEsse 9, which has CCS (and also 3kW Type 2), but I don’t think will be as good for touring for a range of other reasons. I also hear the CCS on it throttles dramatically when the battery is hot back to not that much better than the 12kW Zero anyway.

I think I’m hearing that configuration 2 for the Zero is better than configuration 1 in reality, because AC chargers that will supply 12kW are a dwindling resource. In the future, it will be more 7kW destination chargers and therefore I don’t get a huge advantage in the real world from being able to AC charge at 12kW.

What about those 7kW destination chargers though... do we think people will still keep installing those, or will companies focus on putting in CCS rapid chargers instead?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
211 Posts
7kw's are the new norm, I doubt they'll go. It's the same reason I'm not keen on buying a car with > 7 kw charging in future, as I suspect it's less than useful, unless you live in France where 11/22kw is "common" due to the Zoe.. 3 phase charging in UK is just not common at all.

Ipswich council built a car park with 28 ish of them (think thats the number .. it's above 20), and are talkign about building another car-park with 50+. My work is talking about putting 100+ in their 1000 car car-park, and I think I saw someone post a National trust site with > 30 of them. I suspect you'll see car-parks with half or more of the spaces with chargers of 7kw in future.
 

·
Registered
2011 Leaf with Muxsan 17.6kWh battery, curt tow hitch fitted for bikes or buzz rack P10
Joined
·
242 Posts
My take on this is that if you can have both CCS and 12kw charging you would want both.
In the UK we dont have as much 3ph and thus less 22kw ac points but its all over the place once you get to mainland europe, this make a highspeed ac charger on board a huge asset. But here in the UK you might only need CCS although when you get to a charger at say a lidl that has ac43 and CCS but someone is already on the CCS or Chademo having that AC charger with 12kw would be a real bonus.

I think adding CCS to a vehicle while technically possible is prohibitively expensive. however adding AC charging is just a matter of adding supplies, the correct type2 socket and hooking it to the battery with a suitable disconnect. My point is that the Energica EsseEsse9 would therefore have more potential if you could do this work/ find a competent EV engineer to do it for you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
165 Posts
3 phase charging in UK is just not common at all.
Correction: Not common in England.
Most of the Chargeplace Scotland AC chargers are 22kW 3-phase AC.
Most of the Dragon Charging (Welsh branding of GeniePoint) AC chargers are 22kw 3-phase AC.
Most of the ESB E-Cars AC chargers in Ireland are 22kW 3-phase AC

Household charging is down to the supply to the houses that feed them; in the UK, most houses don't have three-phase mains available, so 7kW is about as fast as they go.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,167 Posts
Yes, as a Zoe owner, a lack of 22kw AC chargers definitely concerns me.

It's not been an issue yet, but if they do start to become scarce then we'll have no choice but to use our ICE for long journeys - having to stop for 5-6 hours per charge en route isn't exactly practical
I agree 44kW AC will die off over next few years, but 22kW charging is growing as many new EVs support 11kW (3 phase) which speeds up destination charging, such a meal, cinema, etc.

To accommodate 11kW (3 phase) and 7kW (single phase) cars requires 22kW points. It is also useful for taxis as many support 22kW.

It was a shame Tesco only installed 7kW as would have been easy to load balance 22kW on same supply. Because they are FOC, I suspect was done to keep cost of electric down - they didn't want Zoes getting several quid of electric ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: cah197

·
Registered
Joined
·
211 Posts
@proddick I disagree, with a 22kw supply a vendor can choose to put in 3 7kw chargers (ie charging 3 cars) or one 22kw post (charging 1)... when supply is limited I suspecty they'll do former, given a choice between say 9 posts and 3 for similar supply/cabling costs. Council in Ipswich just built a car park with some 28 7.2 kw posts (Crown st car park)... and are planning another with 150... Decision made on new Ipswich Portman Road multi-storey car park -> with options on another 150 (I think it's approved now).. I suspect all of these will be 7.2kw, as the supply to install 300 22kw is what 6MW, compared to 2 for a 7.2!

I've mentioned it before but my work is actually moving from supplying 7.2kw to supplying load balanced 3.6kw points, as the 30 7.2's they have are frequently pre-covid all used and it's starting to happen again as people return from office. Reason is most cars today are charged at lunchtime, necessatiting an EV shuffle from the EV owners at lunchtimes -> putting double (slower) sockets in means they can avoid people having to move cars to help colleagues needing charge but still given 7.2 if the next-door point not used.. I suspect the Ipswich setup above will be common eventually with "half" or more of points in a multi storey having a 7.2 or 3.6...

I tend to agree with you though on single/one/two post non-desintation charger installs as in Scotland/Wales/other locations, when it's a small amount of points it makes sense to make those AC 3 phase -> those will have a 22kw socket as makes sense to do so alongside DC. (ie current evbox Geniepoints etc). and I did recall that the next ecotricity charging locations that were announced with Tesla will not include AC at all.

I'm just thinking of what will happen in 5 years, and if councils building things like ^ (which I commend Ipswich for doing) I suspect we'll see 7.2 single phase as the type-2 "norm".
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,167 Posts
I disagree, with a 22kw supply a vendor can choose to put in 3 7kw chargers (ie charging 3 cars) or one 22kw post (charging 1)... when supply is limited I suspecty they'll do former
I specifically mentioned load balancing. Supplies are in Amps and generally it will be feasible to get a 64A 3 phase connection, that will allow 4 x 22kW capable sockets which will drop down to 11kW or even 7kW if some are already in use. It is unusual now to install an odd number of sockets as most vendors install dual head posts. Unfortunately not all manufacturers offer load balancing on their 3 phase sockets, for example Podpoint don't, which may be why Tesco don't have them.

I agree that more posts with a lower charge rate are a reasonable idea for workplace charging where there are PHEVs and a long dwell time, but that is different to destination charging for shopping and leisure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cDy
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top