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Help....

We have an Audi E-Tron on order which is due to arrive in a couple of weeks and I have now stumbled across what appears to quite a common issue in regards to a 'Looped Supply' Our current scenario is detailed below, I'm really looking for some advice on what our options are as I seem to see and read many conflicting messages.
  • Our current supply runs into us, then onto our neighbour. This is operating on 60a fuse
  • Our DNO have said we can't upgrade to a 100a fuse as the service wouldn't be able to manage the load
  • As such we would need an independant feed to our neighbours
  • This isnt really an option for us as its going to cause too much unrest
We're based in Kent and our DNO is UK Power Networks.

I'm very much a novice in this area so I'm really after some guidance as to what my options on a looped supply so that we don't have to impact our neighbour.

Please help,

Rob (y)
 

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I believe the DNO would unloop you for free.
What unrest would it cause?

Without unlooping your going to be stuck as no one will want to install a point to the current regs as the supply is possibly not upto the job if your drawing 32amp continuously for a while.ans then stick some other bits on like a shower and then the neighbour starts cooking their dinner or having a shower too and then your supply into both houses hits 90amps
That's not a situation I'd want to be in to be honest as you'll get a lot of unrest if the main supply for both gets damaged from high draws...
 

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A 16A charger might be an option if your existing household demand would fit within the 60A fuse rating and if (you'd need to check this) UKPN's rules on EV charge-points allow 16A chargers on looped supplies.

Alternatively there's a few chargers now on the market with smart charging capabilities, they monitor the incoming supply and then control the charging rate to stay within the fuse rating - Zappi, Garo Wallbox, possibly some of the Alfen models.

You'd have to see whether your electrician and UKPN would accept this as a solution.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I believe the DNO would unloop you for free.
What unrest would it cause?

Without unlooping your going to be stuck as no one will want to install a point to the current regs as the supply is possibly not upto the job if your drawing 32amp continuously for a while.ans then stick some other bits on like a shower and then the neighbour starts cooking their dinner or having a shower too and then your supply into both houses hits 90amps
That's not a situation I'd want to be in to be honest as you'll get a lot of unrest if the main supply for both gets damaged from high draws...
You are correct, oddly because the work is not required on my house they will unloop for free.

The couple next door are retired and have too much time on their hands. It didn't really help that the first they heard of the proposed unlooping was about 5 minutes after we found out. The DNO knocked on their door and informed them of what was happening & wasn't the politest in regards to explaining what their options were.

In short our neighbours don't want it done because of the disruption to their property & to be fair if it was the other way around I wouldn't be overly keen. They seem to be more concerned about the unrest it would cause internally as opposed to the fact the DNO would dig their drive up.

Speaking with complete ignorance here, what unrest would it cause internally? The DNO have said that they would put a new box probably on their outside wall. Is the 'unrest' a connection from that both to current consumer unit situated under the stairs? What else would be required?
 

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The expected daily usage and associated recharging you haven't mentioned but this might mean that you could just have a partial charge occasionally at home with the car granny charger (powered from domestic 3 pin domestic socket) plus relying on rapid chargers on your journeys for the main charging requirement.
If your annual mileage is similar to the average for the UK car driver - apparently in the region of 7000 - 8000 miles pa, then the average weekly mileage is around 150 miles, so that could mean only needing a rapid charge top up about every 7 days, avoiding running down to a low state of charge.
 

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You are correct, oddly because the work is not required on my house they will unloop for free.

The couple next door are retired and have too much time on their hands. It didn't really help that the first they heard of the proposed unlooping was about 5 minutes after we found out. The DNO knocked on their door and informed them of what was happening & wasn't the politest in regards to explaining what their options were.

In short our neighbours don't want it done because of the disruption to their property & to be fair if it was the other way around I wouldn't be overly keen. They seem to be more concerned about the unrest it would cause internally as opposed to the fact the DNO would dig their drive up.

Speaking with complete ignorance here, what unrest would it cause internally? The DNO have said that they would put a new box probably on their outside wall. Is the 'unrest' a connection from that both to current consumer unit situated under the stairs? What else would be required?
The DNO have to unloop if the extra supply is for an EV charge point or an Air or Ground Source Heat Pump.

Your neighbours need sweet-talking as they cannot actually prevent the work from being done although they could not doubt make your life hell. Let's just hope that they haven't anything to hide, for example a bypassed meter. ;)

The normal situation is a new connection from the road to an external meter box, and then a new connection from there to their consumer unit. Depending on where their current supply runs they may have the power off from anything between 5 minutes and a day.

I'd appeal to their better nature and offer to help with things like keeping their fridge or freezer running or at least the contents cool.

The suggestion about Rapid charging makes sense if you don't do many miles and intend moving soon. If you intend staying long-term or want to benefit from the better electricity deals around then its worth keeping going.
 

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Great shame if you don't get on with your next-door neighbour, but even more so if the DNO's rep was less than diplomatic in approaching them. Let's hope it all gets settled amicably over a socially-distanced cup of tea.

And you don't want to be fobbed off with a suggestion that you could use a local rapid when you have the possibility of a home charge point, with the convenience that brings, let alone the cost saving.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
A 16A charger might be an option if your existing household demand would fit within the 60A fuse rating and if (you'd need to check this) UKPN's rules on EV charge-points allow 16A chargers on looped supplies.

Alternatively there's a few chargers now on the market with smart charging capabilities, they monitor the incoming supply and then control the charging rate to stay within the fuse rating - Zappi, Garo Wallbox, possibly some of the Alfen models.

You'd have to see whether your electrician and UKPN would accept this as a solution.
This is interesting, I've also read that if you have an electrician perform a load test on your current supply and it proves it could work then they may allow it. Is that wishful thinking or has anyone heard of this?

Is there a defined set of regulations for this or is just purely determined by the DNO for your area?
 

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Great shame if you don't get on with your next-door neighbour, but even more so if the DNO's rep was less than diplomatic in approaching them. Let's hope it all gets settled amicably over a socially-distanced cup of tea.

And you don't want to be fobbed off with a suggestion that you could use a local rapid when you have the possibility of a home charge point, with the convenience that brings, let alone the cost saving.
Haha, it's not that we don't get on with them, far from it. They are just of a certain type that do not like change.
 

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The expected daily usage and associated recharging you haven't mentioned but this might mean that you could just have a partial charge occasionally at home with the car granny charger (powered from domestic 3 pin domestic socket) plus relying on rapid chargers on your journeys for the main charging requirement.
If your annual mileage is similar to the average for the UK car driver - apparently in the region of 7000 - 8000 miles pa, then the average weekly mileage is around 150 miles, so that could mean only needing a rapid charge top up about every 7 days, avoiding running down to a low state of charge.
Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Expected daily usage | The car would be for my wife so predominately for work which is a 12 mile round trip and then the occasional longer trip of maybe 20-40 miles. 150 miles per week would be more than sufficiant in terms of estimating usage.

When you say a 'car granny charger' (powered from domestic 3 pin domestic socket) - I assume this is something you just sort without the DNO? Excuse my ignorance here but based on our proposed usage, is this feasible and is it going to cause me any further issues with the DNO, neighbour further down the line.
 

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The DNO have to unloop if the extra supply is for an EV charge point or an Air or Ground Source Heat Pump.

Your neighbours need sweet-talking as they cannot actually prevent the work from being done although they could not doubt make your life hell. Let's just hope that they haven't anything to hide, for example a bypassed meter. ;)

The normal situation is a new connection from the road to an external meter box, and then a new connection from there to their consumer unit. Depending on where their current supply runs they may have the power off from anything between 5 minutes and a day.

I'd appeal to their better nature and offer to help with things like keeping their fridge or freezer running or at least the contents cool.

The suggestion about Rapid charging makes sense if you don't do many miles and intend moving soon. If you intend staying long-term or want to benefit from the better electricity deals around then its worth keeping going.
Thanks for the advice, I think we will have to approach them again. It may not be ideal in regards to having the work done but by us requesting it, it is free of charge to them. If they were to request an EV, my understanding is that our DNO would make them pay because the work is required on their drive.

We certainly don't intend on moving so I will try and see if we can come to an agreement with them. The gentlemen is a retired electrical engineer so I felt a bit out of my depth when discussing this originally with him however they did also mention that the work is going to cost them thousands of pounds and require their whole upstairs re-wiring which based on Information I now know I just can't see myself. Unless i'm missing something?
 

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You can use a 13 amp 3 pin socket in the house to run a 'granny' charger but it isn't recommended for long term use. Especially if the house wiring is many years old. Really the issue is the condition of old sockets. With your usage, it will charge up overnight with no problem. But doesn't resolve the situation. And long term a fixed EV charger should be installed.

Also, it is only the lever of the EV charger that is causing the free DNO installation so that will be needed in order to get the two properties connected separately.

There should be hardly any disruption inside their property as the new connection would just be from the new outside meter box to the existing CU. In effect, the old meter ( presumably inside their property ) can be left there, isolated from the new incoming supply if removing it would disturb decorations.

Absolutely no need for the entire property to be re-wired just because the incoming supply is now not shared. As an electrician, he should know that.

One point that could help in friendly discussions is that this change could help them if they wanted to sell in the future as being on the existing 'shared' supply could be seen as a serious negative by buyers and may limit the market. However, having the opportunity to rectify this negative at no cost would solve that future problem.
 

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150 miles a week is doable with a 13A socket. Charge twice a week at 10A and you'd be unlikely to ever run short. Plenty of people just do this for long periods of time.

It has to be said that as you're planning to stay in the house I would still want to resolve it and get a proper EV 32A outlet though..

It seems unlikely that the energy supplier would require any rectification work post-meter at your neighbours just for re-routing the external supply (unless they tested it and deemed it unsafe I suppose, but why would they even have done that at this point?).
 

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You can use a 13 amp 3 pin socket in the house to run a 'granny' charger but it isn't recommended for long term use. Especially if the house wiring is many years old. Really the issue is the condition of old sockets. With your usage, it will charge up overnight with no problem. But doesn't resolve the situation. And long term a fixed EV charger should be installed.

Also, it is only the lever of the EV charger that is causing the free DNO installation so that will be needed in order to get the two properties connected separately.

There should be hardly any disruption inside their property as the new connection would just be from the new outside meter box to the existing CU. In effect, the old meter ( presumably inside their property ) can be left there, isolated, from the new incoming supply if removing it would disturb decorations.

Absolutely no need for the entire property to be re-wired just because the incoming supply is now not shared. As an electrician, he should know that.

One point that could help in friendly discussions is that this change could help them if they wanted to sell in the future as being on the existing 'shared' supply could be seen as a serious negative by buyers and may limit the market. However, having the opportunity to rectify this negative at no cost would solve that future problem.
Cheers for the response. So when we re-decorated our house a couple of years ago we had a new consumer unit, new sockets and pretty much the whole house re-wired at that point because we moved a lot of the sockets so we should be ok on that side of things.

Thanks for the advice, I think we definitely need another discussion with them.
 

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Theres a few way around this.

Firstly the dno can install a 80amp fuse on the same incoming cable.

Secondly find a charger that can have a CT load managing clamp.
If you set the clamp to the size of your incoming fuse the charger will only take what's available.

I have one fitted on my Andersen.
 

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Theres a few way around this.

Firstly the dno can install a 80amp fuse on the same incoming cable.

Secondly find a charger that can have a CT load managing clamp.
If you set the clamp to the size of your incoming fuse the charger will only take what's available.

I have one fitted on my Andersen.
So the DNO have confirmed in writing to use that they can't install an 80amp fuse. Their exact wording is;

On a looped supply you are only able to have 60a – I have checked to see if it is possible to have it upgraded to 80a, but unfortunately it isn’t.

However, in her previous email she said...

As far as I am aware, we can upgrade to 80a on a looped supply which is sufficient for some car chargers but this would need to be confirmed by the company who are installing the charger for you.

I have emailed the lead engineer for the local area for them to have a look at the job and confirm if what I have mentioned above regarding upgrading to 80a would be possible on the looped supply.

In regards to your second point, are you saying effectively I could have any charger that can have a CT load managing clamp? If so, does the DNO have to be made aware of this?

I suppose my question here is, are the DNO only being made aware of this by our current proposed EV Charger company because they want to cover their backside or is there a legislation that means we have to inform and get sign off from our DNO on whatever solution we decide to go with?

Thanks in advance. P.S - Just had a quick look at the Anderson chargers, they look like (y)
 

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All dno’s are different but I’ve seen plenty of looped supplies upgraded to 80. But it’s their fuse.

When you do your home survey for your charger it should ask for photos of your dB and service head. It should be clear it’s looped and some have a drop down box but mention it in the email. Then the installing company will notify your dno, takes 5 days max, and get you installed.

On the ena form you have to say max demand including EV, fuse size, ct clamp installed. So they do legally have to be informed.

When your getting a ctclamp installed make sure the installers are using “EV cable” it has the ct cable inside and looks miles better. Or get the charger set at 16amps and wait a few months for the wireless clamps.
 

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  • Wiring Regulations BS7671 132.16 Additions and alterations
  • Distribution Code DPC5.2.1
  • IET Electric Vehicle Code of Practice v3 Section 11
 

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Personally I'd just forge ahead with it.

They can kick up a fuss but at the end of the day what's that going to get them?

At most they will have 2hrs without power from the unloops I've seen mentioned on various places. My brother's was about that so it's not a big issue.
 
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