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You will see shell and BP and all the other petrol company's put in Hydrogen pumps, they will invest in what every keeps you coming to the pump, this could kill the electric car. People don't care about charging at home and all the benefits, they see 3min fill up £60 on there way 350 miles and fill up again
I do...Loving the charge at home option so much,Zoe# 2 is on order,and hating every litre of overpriced juice going in the petrol loaner while I wait!
 

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What I don't understand is why aren't the big 6 utility companies investing into a rapid charge network and following Ecotricity's lead.

I can't see a problem with people filling up their EV at home if you explained how cheap it is. The problem is people are oblivious that EVs exist, let alone how cheap they are to run.
Presumably they've looked at Ecotricity's returns on the investment in EH and not found them attractive. That's the risk you take,. going first. And could Ecotricity have built the EH without Nissan's investment? The natural sponsors of charging points at the moment are the car manufacturers. Look at the number of Tesla charge points that have gone in recently.

The other networks are dependent on site owners wanting installations, which means that the locations of new chargers has no strategic planning.

I think we need some changes in government subsidies. The kerbside charging aspect of OLEV is not, as far as I know, being taken up to any significant degree. Better to aim it at building a rapid charger network on major A road routes.

I'd go for a subsidy on installing rapids, and associated power supply, that was proportional to the distance from the nearest equivalent facility. As it is it seems that installation decisions are being made on the basis of local EV ownership, which is resulting in clusters of chargers too close to where many owners live to be of use to them.

Unfortunately some people do not have off road parking which will definitely hinder people from purchasing EVs. Untill manufacturers release affordable EVs with a genuine 300+ range with 100+ kWh charge rates at nationwide stations. Obviously this will take time, but they will get there.
Even then, if you don't have a home charge facility you loose a big slice of the economic gain from driving a BEV.
 

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Virtually non stop ads for hydrogen having arrived at Shell at Cobham services just now.
The goverment IMO is desperate to have a taxable fuel for personal transport - Hydrogen is one such with fixed refuling stations. The charge at home EV's are their worst nightmare as they can not push up the cost of electricity to the home to recover fuel duty. Never mind those charging on solar PV.

My betting is on road pricing to counteract the loss of revenue caused by increasing EV use.

As to Ammonia, No, I used to service Dyeline Machines (Blueprints) which used an aqueous ammonia solution as the developer in the 70's. Gasmask job and if the machines leaked due to worn seals etc, needed to clear the area before repairing.
Dreadful Idea!
 

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The goverment IMO is desperate to have a taxable fuel for personal transport - Hydrogen is one such with fixed refuling stations. The charge at home EV's are their worst nightmare as they can not push up the cost of electricity to the home to recover fuel duty. Never mind those charging on solar PV.

My betting is on road pricing to counteract the loss of revenue caused by increasing EV use.

As to Ammonia, No, I used to service Dyeline Machines (Blueprints) which used an aqueous ammonia solution as the developer in the 70's. Gasmask job and if the machines leaked due to worn seals etc, needed to clear the area before repairing.
Dreadful Idea!
I seem to remember reading that early fridges used ammonia as the refrigerant and quite a few people were killed when it leaked.

Any scheme that tries to replicate the fuel station model is dead in the water in my opinion as there is no organic path to mass take up. People aren't going to buy cars they can't fuel at home without a very large national network of fuelling stations. Companies aren't going to invest in building such a network without there being a lot of cars on the road to pay for it. It's a vision of the future from the 1960s or 70s that might have been plausible then but isn't any more. Perhaps that's why it's attractive to policians, who grew up in that era ;)
 

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The government seem to favour Hydrogen over BEV. The technology that has been developed using ammonia to safely transport the fuel to 'stations' will probably be the future. The key is producing it via renewables, if Australia can deliver this - then it will almost certainly be the way of things. There is no reason they could not be the next Saudi Arabia.

It might not be what you want to hear - but if the government want - then it will happen.
 

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It's almost as if right wing parties have an issue with environmental protection and renewable energy...
Of course they do. They are worried for the oil and gas companies, which are some of the biggest earning shares in pension funds across the country and a major constituent of the various FTSE indices. When they start to fail, the financial impact will be significant.They probably figure quite highly in funding political parties too.

It doesn't really matter about hydrogen - you just need to follow the money. People, as a herd, may be pretty stupid but not stupid enough to fail to work out that that plugging your car in overnight is way, way cheaper than having to drive to a hydrogen station and pay through the nose to fill up.
 

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Of course they do. They are worried for the oil and gas companies, which are some of the biggest earning shares in pension funds across the country and a major constituent of the various FTSE indices. When they start to fail, the financial impact will be significant.They probably figure quite highly in funding political parties too.

It doesn't really matter about hydrogen - you just need to follow the money. People, as a herd, may be pretty stupid but not stupid enough to fail to work out that that plugging your car in overnight is way, way cheaper than having to drive to a hydrogen station and pay through the nose to fill up.
Well they are stupid enough to drive to a petrol station and pay through the nose.
 

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The government seem to favour Hydrogen over BEV. The technology that has been developed using ammonia to safely transport the fuel to 'stations' will probably be the future. The key is producing it via renewables, if Australia can deliver this - then it will almost certainly be the way of things. There is no reason they could not be the next Saudi Arabia.

It might not be what you want to hear - but if the government want - then it will happen.


I think you imagine the British government has much more power than it really has. The fossils in government might be "in favour" of hydrogen or ammonia etc as yesterday's visions of the future seem to appeal to them, but there is no way they are going to roll out a massive state-mandated network of hydrogen or ammonia fuelling stations. It's just not realistic.

Besides, the UK as a market is too small to make much difference in the global scheme of things in deciding whether BEVs or hydrogen/ammonia dominates. The EU27, China, USA, perhaps increasingly India will make a difference, Britain not so much. That should help ensure some eccentric, suboptimal solution isn't chosen through political whim.
 

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I think you imagine the British government has much more power than it really has. The fossils in government might be "in favour" of hydrogen or ammonia etc as yesterday's visions of the future seem to appeal to them, but there is no way they are going to roll out a massive state-mandated network of hydrogen or ammonia fuelling stations. It's just not realistic.

Besides, the UK as a market is too small to make much difference in the global scheme of things in deciding whether BEVs or hydrogen/ammonia dominates. The EU27, China, USA, perhaps increasingly India will make a difference, Britain not so much. That should help ensure some eccentric, suboptimal solution isn't chosen through political whim.
People don't really care what powers their cars they are fickle and will go with whats the cheapest. I don’t really see what the USA or China have to do with it. The UK government after Brexit could sway the uptake to Hydrogen. You don’t give enough credit to the UK government. If they want it - it will happen. The world is a big place and new deals from far away lands are set to be struck.
 

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People don't really care what powers their cars they are fickle and will go with whats the cheapest. I don’t really see what the USA or China have to do with it. The UK government after Brexit could sway the uptake to Hydrogen. You don’t give enough credit to the UK government. If they want it - it will happen. The world is a big place and new deals from far away lands are set to be struck.
Why would hydrogen be cheaper though? At present it is much more expensive than electricity and more expensive than petrol in the USA.

Economies of scale make new technologies cheaper. BEVs are becoming cheaper as batteries become cheaper as they are produced in larger volumes. Britain is simply too small a market to drive such cost reductions on its own. If global trends make BEVs cost competitive a British government won't be able to to change such a reality whatever it "favours".
 

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Why would hydrogen be cheaper though? At present it is much more expensive than electricity and more expensive than petrol in the USA.

Economies of scale make new technologies cheaper. BEVs are becoming cheaper as batteries become cheaper as they are produced in larger volumes. Britain is simply too small a market to drive such cost reductions on its own. If global trends make BEVs cost competitive a British government won't be able to to change such a reality whatever it "favours".
I don' think the UK will be alone though. Not sure why Hydrogen needs to be cheaper, its all about taxes, infrastructure and control. The cars will come down in price, and the technology to make the Hydrogen will get better all over time.

99% of the populous will drive what they are given, just like it always has been. Don't get me wrong I am sold on EV's, I just don’t see world governments giving up what they have.

I would like to know, what your vested interst is ? You don't sound like a punter - I get the feeling your already in the game.
 

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I don' think the UK will be alone though. Not sure why Hydrogen needs to be cheaper, its all about taxes, infrastructure and control. The cars will come down in price, and the technology to make the Hydrogen will get better all over time.
Technology to make Hydrogen is pretty mature. You just combine any convenient fossil fuel with water vapour against a catalyst. There probably isn't much scope for greater efficiency.
 

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Technology to make Hydrogen is pretty mature. You just combine any convenient fossil fuel with water vapour against a catalyst. There probably isn't much scope for greater efficiency.
No I meant from renewables. That older technology of using fossil fuels is not where we want to be going.
 

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No I meant from renewables. That older technology of using fossil fuels is not where we want to be going.
"Renewables" is just electricity for the most part, and making H2 by electrolysis is well understood - just not economic.

There's the possibility of some kind of chemical/bio technology to make H2 directly from sunlight, but it's unlikely ever to reach the levels of conversion efficiently that PV is heading for.

Even in photosynthesis the first step in converting solar energy is essentially electrical.

Energy is more safely, and more efficiently transported in wires than in tankers.
 

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"Renewables" is just electricity for the most part, and making H2 by electrolysis is well understood - just not economic.

There's the possibility of some kind of chemical/bio technology to make H2 directly from sunlight, but it's unlikely ever to reach the levels of conversion efficiently that PV is heading for.
The wonderful Carbon Commentary Newsletter reports this week that: " ...artificial photosynthesis, which shows clear signs of becoming efficient, non-toxic and reliable, will eventually become the lowest cost means of hydrogen production."
 
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