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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Witnessed by several forum members at the very successful Malvern ELECTRAA event yesterday referring to Ecotricity delivery compared to London's Source East public charging infrastructure.

After saying...... Having witnessed the lack of early type 2 use at service stations the government weren't interested in our new plans so we just went and did what we thought was necessary anyway..... came another revelation;

"The electric highway has cost £20 million so far"

Anyone know or care to guess what all the fast post have cost the taxpayer?
Now conveniently handed over to private companies in the hope of finally seeing some on going maintenance, not a requirement so not provided for in the initial eye watering installation funding costs:rolleyes:.

In terms of power delivery to fuel electric cars there appears to be a single clear vision private initiative (for public benefit) winner expanding exponentially and a clear government backed loser increasingly vanishing in to a foot note in history.

I wonder if and when they will ever be held accountable for this error in judgement, lack of due diligence and proper targeting of tax payer money to meet their own stated aims:confused::eek:.

Well done Ecotricity for having the vision and following through. I for one salute you:).
 

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Anyone know or care to guess what all the fast post have cost the taxpayer?
Now conveniently handed over to private companies in the hope of finally seeing some on going maintenance not a requirement so not provided for in the initial eye watering installation funding:rolleyes:.

In terms of power delivery to fuel electric cars there appears to be a clear private initiative for public benefit winner expanding exponentially and a clear government backed loser increasingly vanishing in to a foot note in history.

I wonder if and when they will ever be held accountable for this error in judgement and proper targeting of tax payer money.

Well done Ecotricity for having the vision.
I fully agree - it seems some on here still seem to think it makes sense to spend £12k a go on non rapid chargers as per the GMEV experience.
I bet that if they were installed by the likes of Ecotricity, the cost would have been a fraction that Olev was fleeced for.
 

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So... 160 rapid chargers for £20m

That is an average of £125k each.

But that includes everything - back office, RFID cards, publicity, website, maintenance, planning permission, contract negotiations... Not too bad I guess.
 

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Yep - and importantly, mostly NOT funded by taxpayers.

Also, I think there are around 188 chargers on the Electric Highway of which around 21 are non rapid.

So... 160 rapid chargers for £20m

That is an average of £125k each.

But that includes everything - back office, RFID cards, publicity, website, maintenance, planning permission, contract negotiations... Not too bad I guess.
 

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If we accept those figures then that's 10 x 32 Amp AC chargers for the price of one DC. (Given that most AC units support 2 vehicles, is that 10 or 20 cars?)

Thus if provided at my local railway station that's 10 commuter cars charging all day with no queue, or potentially a queue of cars arriving around the same time to use one rapid with the resulting wait.

Surely you want a rapid charger to charge during a journey, but at a destination AC is fine.

AC also covers non-rapid cars, quadricycles, and bikes.
 

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If we accept those figures then that's 10 x 32 Amp AC chargers for the price of one DC. (Given that most AC units support 2 vehicles, is that 10 or 20 cars?)

Thus if provided at my local railway station that's 10 commuter cars charging all day with no queue, or potentially a queue of cars arriving around the same time to use one rapid with the resulting wait.

Surely you want a rapid charger to charge during a journey, but at a destination AC is fine.

AC also covers non-rapid cars, quadricycles, and bikes.
Or if they are double units in town centre car park potentially 20 cars charged up every 3 hours from empty or more realistically with average of 10-12 kWh per car about 50 per half day.
 

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There is certainly a case for slower charging at stations etc. - the question is have taxpayer funds been well spent on the "slow" infrastructure when the usage of the "rapid" infrastructure has been higher and quite possibly a key factor in the accelerating take up of EVs without recourse to significant taxpayer funds.



If we accept those figures then that's 10 x 32 Amp AC chargers for the price of one DC. (Given that most AC units support 2 vehicles, is that 10 or 20 cars?)

Thus if provided at my local railway station that's 10 commuter cars charging all day with no queue, or potentially a queue of cars arriving around the same time to use one rapid with the resulting wait.

Surely you want a rapid charger to charge during a journey, but at a destination AC is fine.

AC also covers non-rapid cars, quadricycles, and bikes.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
If we accept those figures then that's 10 x 32 Amp AC chargers for the price of one DC. (Given that most AC units support 2 vehicles, is that 10 or 20 cars?)

Thus if provided at my local railway station that's 10 commuter cars charging all day with no queue, or potentially a queue of cars arriving around the same time to use one rapid with the resulting wait.

Surely you want a rapid charger to charge during a journey, but at a destination AC is fine.

AC also covers non-rapid cars, quadricycles, and bikes.
Nobody said there is no place for type 2. There is, supermarket carparks seem to get used sometimes when not ICED or broken. They also have the means to pay for them themselves.

However to add perspective I have not had a 1 in 10 success rate on the type 2s near where I live. On one occasion after a 20 min call on my mobile to C.M. they got the post working EVentually but I failed to drive for longer than the time it took to get the charge started for all my trouble!:mad:.

Two separate little chef posts on A34 have never worked. All lit up and on C.M./Polar maps. No maintenance, staff care not and know nothing including who to report it to in company. Sadly all too typical in my experience half way between our two biggest cities:rolleyes:.

Even Raymond Blanc's centre of attention to detail...Le Manoir aux Quat' Saisons have a C.M. one that has never worked properly!

Single chargers with all that RFID guff can from my experience simply not be relied on. Neither can the 2 at Bicester village.

Remove the RFID guff and government involvement and you have a reliable type 2 network like Zero Carbon World has produced cheaply and effectively. Try it, you might like it:).

Funny isn't it? The best national Rapid and "fast" network have 2 things in common....
1. A vision of what was actually needed with the ability to follow through and deliver.
2. No government involvement.
Meanwhile the government want to make the UK the centre of electric vehicle excellence blah blah:confused::rolleyes:.
Its about time they got on with it then:D.
 

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Personally I've made quite a bit of use of AC facilities over the last few years provided by both Source East and Source London for destination charging, while rapid chargers were and are useless to me. Thus growth in rapid chargers certainly didn't encourage me to buy.

Surely most EVs, most of the time, are charged at user's homes.

The total energy delivered by either Rapids or public AC systems will be relatively small compared to home charging. It's of little value to these two secondary charging mechanisms to try and score points off each other based on usage when neither is used that much versus charging at home.

Research suggests that public infrastructure is a confidence-building measure to provide reassurance. Reassurance uses 0 kWh.

Of course that also suggests that there isn't a commercial model to make a profitable business from operating infrastructure. Whether it's funded from electricity company profits or the public purse, it's still not currently sustainable in its own right.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Research suggests that public infrastructure is a confidence-building measure to provide reassurance. Reassurance uses 0 kWh.

.
Or a con trick to transfer public money to private investors?:D

Anyway probably just as well as that is all you are likely to get from the reassurance except of course the enormous bill for deployment.

Yes the government have stated that the spending was to provide reassurance. In many cases it has undoubtedly had the opposite effect being ill conceived and poorly executed with post failures, lack of signage, ICEing, unreliable comms, non existant ghost posts and dubious or wholly incorrect mapping.

I am surprised anyone can try to defend the fiasco they engineered to be honest.

Nick if your car can't rapid charge it won't be obvious to you, but hopefully you will be able to go BEV now the rapid network is maturing.
 

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Two seperate little chef posts on A34 have never worked. No maintenance, staff care not and know nothing including who to report it to in company. Sadly all too typical in my experience half way between our two biggest cities:rolleyes:.

Remove the RFID guff and government involvement and you have a reliable type 2 network like Zero Carbon World has produced cheaply and effectively. Try it, you might like it:).
My understanding is that Little Chef went bankrupt several years ago before their network was commissioned. I've seen red posts on the Isle of Wight which I understand were originally intended for their use.

There don't appear to be ZCW locations anywhere near me. There appear to be a handful at hotels in neighbouring counties but nothing useful to me. On the other hand I've used Source East and Source London equipment at a range of shopping centres, sports facilities, and town centre car parks.
 

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Nick if your car can't rapid charge it won't be obvious to you, but hopefully you will be able to go BEV now the rapid network is maturing.
Actually I came from a BEV and have driven tens of thousands of miles in that format.

My Ampera usage is consistent with most UK drivers in that I normally drive less than 40 miles per day (which I can do all on home charging) and my occasion longer journeys using some petrol still leave me at over 250 mpg average. If I had rapid compatibility it would be rarely used.
 

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Fast charging at 6kWh and above is perfect for city/town centres when well managed and not installed by suppliers whose motives are questionable. Shame if it's not working in your area, that's a problem for your MP and Council maybe, perhaps they can switch management to @CYC for a start, but GMEV's 312 fast charge points are certainly encouraging EV use and growth in the North West.

It's foolish to try and compare motorway charging with charging in city centres anyway. Of the £20 million does that include the contribution by Nissan of the hardware? It's also been mentioned numerous times that some EH chargers were (rightly IMO) funded with PiP money. And while I commend Ecotricity for their efforts with the Electric Highway (despite what you may think I 100% support rapid charging along major transport routes ;)), even Ecotricity are not spending the sums necessary to improve the supply capacity to sites where one does not exist. For example, M62 Hartshead Moor Eastbound, won't be having a rapid charger as there is no capacity, and that's despite the millions of pounds of funds available from the RCN (TEN-T priority project). Start digging up city centres, and costs are obviously going to escalate. You won't install 160 rapid chargers in any city centre for £20 million.


Fast charging is clearly being well used, 85% of the first gigawatt hour of electricity supplied by Charge Your Car, who manage both fast and rapid chargers in city centre locations has been supplied by slow/fast chargers. Additionally, despite the 3 rapid chargers available in GMEV now, and the two Nissan Dealers and Ikea, the 32A posts are still being well used. Rapid charging in a city centre is just not convenient for anyone who values their time. It's wonderful that some people can afford 30 minutes to sit in the car each time it needs to charge, but the majority of drivers will never consider an EV if it involves an additional 30 minutes per day of lost time sat in the car, and that assumes EV sales remain low and there are no queues, which really isn't the point at all.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
The time problem I have during a typical 15 minute rapid charge is not having enough of it to get done all the things that need doing.

It would take a 30 minute rapid charge only if I intended to drive around fruitlessly trying to find a working type 2 post near me.

Council? Hmmmm that would be the same councl that allegedly ordered 10 new Leafs and after 3 years the highest miles on any of them was 300, yes that's three hundred!!!!!

I once met one of their employees driving one. He said he hated it but that was what they gave him to drive around to assess storm damage. He had no idea what the big round thing under the charge cover was for. He had no idea rapid chargers even existed or that his car was already fully equipped to use them. I kid you not:rolleyes:.
I guess the council's procurement office doesn't recognise the words free to use!
 

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It would take a 30 minute rapid charge only if I intended to drive around fruitlessly try to find a working type 2 post near me.
:D

Ok, so for balance maybe I need to come and try the 'fast' non-charging near you!
 

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I'm a little confused by Ecotricity statement that they will equip all UK service stations by the end of the year, but they have admitted several locations doesn't have the capacity needed for a Rapid Charger. Does this mean they will upgrade the supply at these service stations?

I did ask Simon the question of reliability of the network. Yes, I appreciate what Ecotricity are doing supplying us with the electric highway. But the reliability isn't there, especially when there is only one rapid per location. I asked him will Ecotricity ever consider using different manufacturers of rapid chargers such as Siemens, ABB, Schneider etc. His answer was that they are sticking with what they have and are working towards fixing what they have.

I agree with him they need to carry on working with what they have as there are 160 in the ground, but why not give these other manufacturers a go? I wonder if the DBT/CEV rapids are setup to work for their monitoring/payment system. With other makes and models of rapid chargers will it be difficult to implement them into their monitoring system? Just having a guess really why they continue to stick with DBT/CEV...

With the current state of rapid chargers out in Birmingham I'm seriously considering leaving my LEAF behind for my 400 mile round trip to Manchester airport next week (even though I have already booked to stay in the Best Plus Western in Manchester with the excellent ZCW points). I really wont be in the mood after a long flight to be turning back on myself on the M5 just to get a Rapid charge in Birmingham and doing the same again in Gloucestershire Michaelwood services.
 

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:D

Ok, so for balance maybe I need to come and try the 'fast' non-charging near you!
I wouldn't risk it in your LEAF it's a tale of two cities or at least North & South. I often have to go to Marlow/Maidenhead ( both nice friendly places) but decided a while back LEAF just wasn't viable for trip and needed Outlander PHEV for the foreseeable future.
I don't think people at opposite ends of the country appreciate the impacts of our different cultures on EV infrastructure which must result from the local councils and politicians we elect.
CYC seems to works for the North but Chargemaster doesn't seem to work for the South. The successful one came from a public sector background but the unsuccessful one from the private sector. ( both Govt funded)
As for ZCW schemes it depends on the host, I've had good experience in Northumberland with free charging whilst I surfed the hotels free wifi but bad experience in York where they wanted me to pay £15 for a few kWh. (Charged instead at Waitrose for free so gave them about £80 of my business.)
 
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