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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I think it is meaningless to have a conversation about BEV without considering the following stats from this weekends crossing of America by two Tesla electric cars in mid-winter;

Trip meter per car: 3,464.5 miles
Total energy: 1,197.8 kWh
Time: 76.5 hours
Average speed: 45.3 mph

As drivers we should be demanding this from OEMs in the UK and not settle for anything less. Obviously this must be at a price point that we can all afford but that's a given and not something we need to argue about. Elon Musk is commited to an affordable, mass market BEV after the Model E (ie within 6 years) and I beleive Tesla will deliver.

In 6 years JC will have nothing to talk about and will hopefully be put out to pasture. In the meantime we can advance our cause by constantly chipping away at the ICE edifice. Clearly, London to Edinburgh in a Model S is a no brainer.
 

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Again I've split this off from the Clarkson thread as I feel it doesn't relate to that particular line of conversation, but I do think it's a valid point worth discussing.

I was speaking to my wife about this on the way to town this morning (in the LEAF, it's nice and quiet so conversation is easy). ;)

I think it's pretty poor what the mainstream/old school car manufacturers are doing, they're still looking down on and generally abusing consumers and the governments from their loft position and dominant market positions.

As said elsewhere in the VW e-Up! conversation, surely there's NO WAY that car is worth what, £9-£10k more than a regular e-Up! in terms of production cost, but even if it were, to expect a combination of consumer and government to foot the bill is just not right.

Tesla, being what they are, have a plan that, to an outsider, seems to make sense. Start with premium models, a high-speed "test" at first to attract crazy pioneers, then the Model S, to attract a very keen and "ready to go" market, risk takers and high-earners who want something new, then the Model X, then go from there. It all makes perfect sense, they're almost being Apple-esque in their approach and I like it... but they're a rare example (and it doesn't all look rosy at all either).

Now take the mainstream manufacturers. I drove a MINI E many years ago. BMW make good profits, record profits. They could make a MINI E tomorrow and I guarantee with the MINI PR machine behind it and a decent range (not even amazing range) it would sell by the bucketload.

BMW/MINI are not alone in this, at least they're doing something, and they're putting their money behind it and it's already paying off.

By why is the LEAF so costly, why does the i3 have such a high price? These companies could make very successful, low profit vehicles now, funded by their old-school vehicles, and they could, I'm sure, have the ability to transform the marketplace by increasing demand, lowering cost, and making EVs the mainstay.

Apparently the Fiat 500e is about the best Fiat 500 money can buy. But it's a lot of money, and only available to one, small market. Crazy.

If governments stopped the funding and legislation, it feels like the mainstream manufacturers would just pack up their EV toys and go back to their old ways, but they wont do it without government support and funding... it's a stupid, stupid situation.

Buy buying, driving, and in our own way promoting EVs of all shapes and sizes we're doing our bit, I wish the manufacturers would reciprocate, I know it's not the PC or phone world, but I'm sure they could evolve this tech faster than they are, make it more affordable, and sell many, many more cars.

Nissan have done it, but seem to be stalling for years, Tesla are doing it they're own way, and now BMW are going at it from a different angle... the landscape is changing and in five years I doubt we will recognise many of the debates and discussions going on in here, but I wish it could be sooner.
 

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Ah let's get Carlos Ghosn on the line!
"Buenos Dias, Carlos"
"Que?"
"I wanna buy a motor"
"Que?"
"Yeas, one of ya electric ones"
"Que?"
"Ya and I wan to do 3,464 miles in 76.5 hours at 45.3mph - nothing less -see?
"Que?"
"Ya and I'll pay ya' 15 big ones!"
"Que?"
"Ya fifteen thousand quid - nothing more - got it?"
"Que?"
CLICK - line dead!
 

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Exactly, they don't have to change and they wont... So I for one really hope Tesla deliver on their promises because these dinosaurs need a boot up their behind.

When all off a sudden the "premium brand" becomes the norm, perhaps the others will get the picture, perhaps they wont. Wait a minute they'll say, loads of people are driving a little Tesla, everyone wants a little Tesla, we need a piece of that!

Maybe Tesla is your Apple, the others are your Dells,your Microsofts, Motorolas and there's another one out there, your Google, who's waiting to pounce. I hope so, I think the market needs it.
 

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I'm reading here something completely implausible. BMW have established their niche as a premium brand with a sports connotation. There is no way that they will produce a non premium-priced product, its just against the company culture and what also not what their current customers expect. BMW wants you to see BMW ownership as elitist. BMW owners want to see their car as elitist.
Nissan and Renault are simply not in that bracket and producing an EV is possibly a lifeline and the possibility an attempt to re-energise their failing brand(s).
It would be suicidal for Tesla cars to debase their brand by producing a low cost EV - no matter what Elon says at this point. Brand is everything to a company - worth much more that its real estate, yet its intangible. A low cost long, range car is an oxymoron - but if it were to carry the same brand it would simply debase the core product and that vehicle could no longer achieve a premium price!
The only way to get car prices down (and performance up) is, perversely not to buy them. Market forces are what manufactures respond to - not owner/buyer opinions?
 
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Do we have room for a conspiracy theory here?Are the manufacturers and oil companies colluding to artificially restrict or suppress the development of EV technology? There is obvious profit in doing so for both parties - continued reliance on resource and replacement ICE engine parts for the lifetime of the car yield rolling revenues.Then along come tesla with a completely clean slate and no edicts to adhere to, and voila: a normal looking car with 300 miles of range. They never needed to consider integrating the ICE into their platform, so they didn't need to compromise.Perhaps the major manufacturers are worried about a mass exodus from ICE vehicles?
 

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It would be suicidal for Tesla cars to debase their brand by producing a low cost EV - no matter what Elon says at this point. Brand is everything to a company - worth much more that its real estate, yet its intangible.
I think you are mistaking "high cost" for "premium", you are right that brand is everything, and it doesn't have to mean you only have expensive cars. For example, you can get a MINI for low-money, and many BMWs are not actually that expensive compared to the wider market, and many are extremely common... but you (and many others) still see them as a "premium brand", why?

A low cost long, range car is an oxymoron - but if it were to carry the same brand it would simply debase the core product and that vehicle could no longer achieve a premium price!
People don't buy low cost BMWs because they make really, really expensive cars, or people don't buy the expensive ones because they share a BMW mechanic with a MINI One owner? Neither I believe is the case?

The only way to get car prices down (and performance up) is, perversely not to buy them. Market forces are what manufactures respond to - not owner/buyer opinions?
We're not talking cars, we're talking electric cars. This is why I hope Tesla (and others) will kick the old school where it hurts as soon as possible. The old models wont allow EVs to breath if they can avoid it, or at least, not until as late in the day as possible... it needs a spark. The second hard market is (hopefully) showing the old boys where the market's at for their current models, maybe they should step it up.
 

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I think you are mistaking "high cost" for "premium", you are right that brand is everything, and it doesn't have to mean you only have expensive cars. For example, you can get a MINI for low-money, and many BMWs are not actually that expensive compared to the wider market, and many are extremely common... but you (and many others) still see them as a "premium brand", why?
But BMWs are not low money. Skoda, Dacia, Proton et. al. are low money. The majority of people can't afford a BMW or the new Mini range. If Elon truly does want to build a car for the masses, it will trash the Tesla brand. A car for the middle class drivers who can't afford a Model S, but may drive a BMW or Mercedes, that's a slightly different equation - but we shouldn't kid ourselves that that is making long-range EVs accessible, it's just making them marginally less exclusive - and if Elons' timetable is anything to go by, GM and Nissan (and possibly others) will already have something similar and more price competitive, if only because Nissan doesn't need to worry about luxury branding, and GM has a vast array of marques it can use.

[quite]We're not talking cars, we're talking electric cars. This is why I hope Tesla (and others) will kick the old school where it hurts as soon as possible. The old models wont allow EVs to breath if they can avoid it, or at least, not until as late in the day as possible... it needs a spark. The second hard market is (hopefully) showing the old boys where the market's at for their current models, maybe they should step it up.[/QUOTE]

And there are significant differences between the two, but branding is not where that difference is. Elite/Luxury branding is the same across almost all industries, and definitely when it comes to cars, which - no matter what Musk says - Tesla is very aware of, and has gone to immense trouble to construct. The only way Tesla could launch a mass market car without hurting itself is to set up a different marque to sell it. Contrary to all their hype about being free of auto-industry legacies, they are still subject to the same basic rules, both from the public and industrial realities of volume vs. margin and price vs range. Making a 300 mile car is simple enough when you have a £50k+ price point.

I'm not saying the traditional manufacturers are paragons of virtue, but rather that Tesla don't have a magic potion to fix anything. If there is a solution to manufacturer price gouging on electrics, the solution really lies with the government and the incentive/grant system. Reforming that (and the grant for chargers) would do more to change behavior with big manufacturers than Tesla.

A few ideas.
  • Implement a tax on manufacturers for every ICE sale in the country (fixed rate per ICE vehicle, regardless of how "green" it may or may not be), paid at the end of every fiscal year. Every EV sale provides a reduction, the scale of which is graduated by range of vehicle. I.e. 50-100 miles gives a reduction/rebate equal to 50% of a single ICE levy, 100-150 miles 100%, >150 miles 150% . This provides manufacturers with an incentive to actually sell EVs. Furthermore, the fact it is a fixed rate per vehicle means it provides the largest incentive to shift sales of low-cost/low-margin vehicles from ICE to EV - meaning cheaper EVs. There would be a minimum range needed to qualify for any reduction/rebate (i.e. 50 miles, to prevent manufacturers making token PHEVs with no real range)
  • Make customer incentives inversely proportional to vehicle cost, i.e. the cheapest EVs get the biggest incentives. Firstly, this provides incentives to manufacturers to push down EV costs so the buyer gets offered the bigger carrots - and works directly against the current system whereby manufactures just bump up the price knowing the customer only feels the post-incentive cost. Secondly, the system is more politically sustainable as it is progressive rather than regressive, as the current system is.
 

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200 miles of range and Leaf levels of performance would be fine for me, at around £30k with some nice options. With tax break and usual haggling expect to pay maybe £22k.

I think that's realistic for this year.
 

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200 miles of range and Leaf levels of performance would be fine for me, at around £30k with some nice options. With tax break and usual haggling expect to pay maybe £22k.

I think that's realistic for this year.

Lol ROFLCOPTER!!!

150miles isn't even realistic in normal driving this year... where are Nissan going to stick the other 30kwh of Cells your going to need? :D
 

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:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

1) 200 real world miles is probably several years away and that is even if Nissan decide to do a Leaf with that range. Much of the noises coming from Nissan suggest that they will not take the Leaf capacity much about the 30kWh as they have other plans for longer range cars... probably in the Infiniti brand.

2) If you think you can get a £30k list car for £22K, especially when it first comes out, then you must be negotiator of the year :)
 

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Implement a tax on manufacturers for every ICE sale in the country
I thought the whopping tax on ICE fuel was already implemented but doesn't seem to have changed anything yet.
BEV's only cost 10% or less to run than ICE's and there are a lot of £20,000 - £30,000 school run cars on the road so where are we going wrong?

Nissan are advertising the Leaf hard and doing their bit but I don't think most manufacturers hearts are in it yet.
Mitsubishi have also done a great job getting the Outlander into the market place but its just a pity it isn't more BEV and less ICE.

There are loads of promises but Tesla invariably leads the way (if often late).
C'mon Elon, get that 200 mile car to market as it really will shake up the others.

(BTW, where did OP Kevin Sharpe go? Met him a few times on various EV events.)
 

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I thought the whopping tax on ICE fuel was already implemented but doesn't seem to have changed anything yet.
BEV's only cost 10% or less to run than ICE's and there are a lot of £20,000 - £30,000 school run cars on the road so were are we going wrong?
Task specific machinery aside, I think it's because a lot of the general car-driving public are mostly morons. Seriously, it's the only explanation I can think of, when there are genuinely viable electric options at similar prices that cost a tiny fraction of what it costs to run an ICE.

(BTW, where did OP Kevin Sharpe go? Met him a few times on various EV events.)
I think he got banned?
 

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[QUOTE="
(BTW, where did OP Kevin Sharpe go? Met him a few times on various EV events.)[/QUOTE]

He was made to sit on the naughty step several times, but as he would not take the hint we locked him under the stairs.
 

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:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

1) 200 real world miles is probably several years away and that is even if Nissan decide to do a Leaf with that range. Much of the noises coming from Nissan suggest that they will not take the Leaf capacity much about the 30kWh as they have other plans for longer range cars... probably in the Infiniti brand.

2) If you think you can get a £30k list car for £22K, especially when it first comes out, then you must be negotiator of the year :)
New chassis, obviously. They have previewed the new design already. Tesla manage 300 miles range, and a few other manufacturers are aiming at 200. 50kWh should do it I think.

30k, down to 25.5k after the tax break... Okay, 22k was optimistic, but not unreasonable I think.

If they don't do it this year others will, and they will have to compete directly with Tesla Model 3 in 2017/18.
 

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Ok, I did read some of those posts which seemed more than a little over the top.
The Roadster, especially the early one, pushed the envelope a little too closely and should have been given more support as those sales got Tesla off the ground.
The recently announced amazing range upgrade which is supposedly sold at cost could have been discounted for these cars and made Tesla fewer enemies.

Sorry being off thread!:eek:
 
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