[MK Tom]

Just happened to meet 'someone in the know' at a Welcome break Ecotricity charger and mentioned shame about the fallout between Ecotricity and Tesla around exclusivity... it transpires that Ecotricity haven't kept to their agreement and as such the monopoly (which I never understood) is no more.... expect Superchargers to appear at motor services shortly!

Great news I think to a) allow better on route charging than diverting to hotel car parks and b) encourage Ecotricity to pull their act together and offer a fairer service to those that need to use their chargers... although I expect based on Dales previous actions a childish retaliation and their customers suffer more

 

[cah197]

Have you been living in a cave?

There are already a ton of Superchargers at Welcome Break MSAs, with more coming.

 

[srichards]

If they haven't kept to their agreement then will other providers be able to put in chargers too?

 

[MK Tom]

If they haven't kept to their agreement then will other providers be able to put in chargers too?

Yes although I doubt WB will want half their car parks split off into 3 sections for separate suppliers or be interested in competition.. sounds like this is more because superchargers offer faster charge rates than EH rapids, however if someone were big enough to offer them an incentive they would probably let them in... i'd just like to see a chargemaster ultracharger at each service station to enable 10.8p per kWh rapid charging.. hopefully then EH will follow suit and offer reasonable tariffs.. my fear is the EH will disappear now they dont have a monopoly as that was all they were interested in

 

[proddick]

my fear is the EH will disappear now they dont have a monopoly as that was all they were interested in

My money is still on them doing a deal with Chargemaster. Dual branded - "Chargemaster powered by Ecotricity" with free Polar Plus subscription for Ecotricity customers

 

[Jack]

My money is still on them doing a deal with Chargemaster. Dual branded - "Chargemaster powered by Ecotricity" with free Polar Plus subscription for Ecotricity customers

So long as they stop using DBT units that might be a good deal.

 

[Steve Thayne]

Yes although I doubt WB will want half their car parks split off into 3 sections for separate suppliers or be interested in competition.. sounds like this is more because superchargers offer faster charge rates than EH rapids, however if someone were big enough to offer them an incentive they would probably let them in... i'd just like to see a chargemaster ultracharger at each service station to enable 10.8p per kWh rapid charging.. hopefully then EH will follow suit and offer reasonable tariffs.. my fear is the EH will disappear now they dont have a monopoly as that was all they were interested in

For info of those new to this. Charge master / Polar are not 10.8 p a edit kwh unless you are already spending £7 a month on the subscription. If most of your charging is done at home this may not make financial sense for you. It also is not needed to get any better access to the number of other national charging operators....Podpoint, Chargepoint genie etc.

As an aside, personally I do not want to support Charge master / Polar - in my view they are driven by the need to provide a revenue stream for shareholders, and do not share the values I have that make me an e v driver - Zero Carbon World, Podpoint, Ecotricity, do.

 

[mclarkie]

EH might just concentrate on DC charging and allow others to install AC/CCS chargers.

 

[srichards]

A polar sub would suddenly make sense if they did. It would also reduce some of the fragmentation as many people could just have a polar card or one app for most of their travel.

 

[proddick]

For info of those new to this. Charge master / Polar are not 10.8 p a minute unless you are already spending £7 a month on the subscription. If most of your charging is done at home this may not make financial sense for you. It also is not needed to get any better access to the number of other national charging operators....Podpoint, Chargepoint genie etc.

As an aside, personally I do not want to support Charge master / Polar - in my view they are driven by the need to provide a revenue stream for shareholders, and do not share the values I have that make me an e v driver - Zero Carbon World, Podpoint, Ecotricity, do.

Edit: ZCW aren't really a player any more. Not aware of any recently installed. EH are a joke - daytime support only.

In the real world EV charging will need to be a business, which Podpoint are too with shareholders - new ones after their funding round. To expand rapid and ultra rapid, perhaps some government subsidies (or loans) are needed, but strict conditions on price, support and access are needed.

Even on PAYG most drivers would pay less on a Chargemaster rapid that an EH £6 one! I can see the M1 MK hub being popular!

 

[proddick]

EH might just concentrate on DC charging and allow others to install AC/CCS chargers.

With respect that doesn't make sense. Multiple triple head rapid units with contactless payment (such as new Chargemaster) are best option for short term, but longer term it will be CCS ultra rapid (150kW+) chargers. Chademo will become legacy.

 

[RJT85]

Light blue touch-paper and stand back…
What is wrong with the charging companies providing their infrastructure and electricity in a commercial business-like manner? If they don’t do this, they are relying on taxpayer subsidies, so:
1. You are paying for it through taxes instead of at the charge point
2. You are also paying for the government administration through OLEV or whatever
3. The subsidies may be removed by future politicians, which would render the charging organisation unsustainable.
Personally, I’d like to see professionally operated, well maintained and well supported charging infrastructure which is sustainable (in both senses) and doesn’t rely on government (read taxpayer) subsidies.

 

[proddick]

3. The subsidies may be removed by future politicians, which would render the charging organisation unsustainable.

I too am not keen on subsidies, but one way to encourage use of chargers would be to offer providers a FIT type arrangement for say 10 years (guaranteed like FIT). Providers would get X Pence per kWh cars consume, which would decrease over 10 years. Providers who charge too much or put in stupid places would not get much subsidy but those that do a good job get rewarded. IMO giving grant to install chargers is mad as no incentive to place correctly or set sensible price.

I also think low cost goverment loans to expand the networks would make sense.

 

[UKTechie]

Talk about paying for things through tax, there are all sorts of things I do not want to pay for from tax taken by gov but that is out of hands of general public so can only let those in power decide how to spend it.

New and emerging markets would get nowhere without some sort of backing from gov or others at least initially

Part 3 does not have the numbers to work right now.

 

[MK Tom]

Have you been living in a cave?

There are already a ton of Superchargers at Welcome Break MSAs, with more coming.

I haven't visited any MSA other than Newport Pagnell and London Gateway recently.. .might notice more when my Model X is delivered and I will be sniffing out all over the country

 

[MK Tom]

Light blue touch-paper and stand back…
What is wrong with the charging companies providing their infrastructure and electricity in a commercial business-like manner? If they don’t do this, they are relying on taxpayer subsidies, so:
1. You are paying for it through taxes instead of at the charge point
2. You are also paying for the government administration through OLEV or whatever
3. The subsidies may be removed by future politicians, which would render the charging organisation unsustainable.
Personally, I’d like to see professionally operated, well maintained and well supported charging infrastructure which is sustainable (in both senses) and doesn’t rely on government (read taxpayer) subsidies.

Think of the future where EV's are as common as ICE's... there would be a filling (petrol,diesel,LPG,electric,hydrogen) at multiple locations subsided by the shop purchases occurred while filling/charging.... the added bonus is that destination chargers install and running costs are relatively cheap and so more shops could afford to provide EV filling stations..
How would we pay for filling you ask?? There would be a simple card reader that would allow the charge to be taken from your bank account.. no membership fees, no monthly memberships required.. unless you would like to encourage customer loyalty then these could be offered IN ADDITION!
How do we get there? Encourage site owners to invest in the chargers.. force the cost down for rapid chargers by increasing demand.. expect a small premium cost for rapid charge use over a 22kw AC charge post and also require the industry to agree on one charge connector going forward.. in my view Tesla's hybrid AC/DC Type 2 connector is most viable although needs to be software to prevent slow charge capable users tying up a rapid charger

 

[proddick]

require the industry to agree on one charge connector going forward..

Already done - will be CCS. EU version is different from USA but similar footprint so makes EU/USA production (eg Bolt) OK. CCS is good for >300 kW with cooled cables, so fine for a long while. I suspect EU (*) Model 3 will be CCS with "Tesla" Type 2 as allows use of Superchargers and CCS rapids (ultra rapids too?) with no adaptor.

* In USA not so easy due to Supercharger using dedicated "Tesla" connector but less need for CCS there I suspect.

 

[Donald Allwright]

I too am not keen on subsidies, but one way to encourage use of chargers would be to offer providers a FIT type arrangement for say 10 years (guaranteed like FIT). Providers would get X Pence per kWh cars consume, which would decrease over 10 years. Providers who charge too much or put in stupid places would not get much subsidy but those that do a good job get rewarded. IMO giving grant to install chargers is mad as no incentive to place correctly or set sensible price.

I also think low cost goverment loans to expand the networks would make sense.

This is an excellent suggestion. I am in favour of the use of subsidies if it is to bring about a situation that would otherwise not come about and there is general agreement that this situation is beneficial. So in this example, such a subsidy would have the beneficial outcome that chargepoints would appear where they are actually useful, and hence the viability of EVs would be much improved. That would lead to a reduction in pollution from ICE cars over time.

 

[mgboyes]

Just happened to meet 'someone in the know' at a Welcome break Ecotricity charger and mentioned shame about the fallout between Ecotricity and Tesla around exclusivity... it transpires that Ecotricity haven't kept to their agreement and as such the monopoly (which I never understood) is no more.... expect Superchargers to appear at motor services shortly!

Great news I think to a) allow better on route charging than diverting to hotel car parks and b) encourage Ecotricity to pull their act together and offer a fairer service to those that need to use their chargers... although I expect based on Dales previous actions a childish retaliation and their customers suffer more

The Monopoly at Welcome Break was dealt with 18 months ago - Tesla paid Ecotricity for a get-out. As far as I know EH still hold the rights (i.e. a third player cannot enter) they just gave Tesla a license to access those sites.

AFAIK it still stands at Moto, Days Inn, etc.

 

[proddick]

AFAIK it still stands at Moto, Days Inn, etc

Good point. Still limits were Tesla can go...