Speak EV - Electric Car Forums banner
41 - 60 of 74 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
889 Posts
Well the TL:DR is that he concluded his ID3 lost 9% of its battery capacity in 1 year.

Admittedly he rapid charged a ridiculous amount including to 100% regularly.
9% loss? If true, that could be concerning, unless the first loss is by far the worst loss.

Saying that, it if is attributed to lots of rapid charging, I'd estimate that my car will probably be subjected yo less than 10 rapid charges per year. So far the Family has had 3 rapid charges to 90%+, all middle of a big journey with immediate use/depletion through continuation of the journey.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
336 Posts
Saying that, it if is attributed to lots of rapid charging, I'd estimate that my car will probably be subjected yo less than 10 rapid charges per year. So far the Family has had 3 rapid charges to 90%+, all middle of a big journey with immediate use/depletion through continuation of the journey.
My charging is similar, largely 7kwh charges overnight and to date four rapid charges to 80%. Not noticed any degradation in the 4500 miles and 10 months of ownership.
 

·
Registered
VW id3 Style
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter · #43 ·
I was waiting for Battery life to give us the shortened video version of this and a 9% loss in SOH in 12 months is certainly very significant. Chris attributes this in particular to lots of high power (100kW) fast charging cycles to 100%. I think Bjorn Nyland reported a similar SOH loss with his Tesla due to a high ratio of DC to AC charging cycles. I hope Chris is right and that the losses will reduce to 1 or 2 % p.a. with more mindful charging in the ensuing years. It would be useful also if Chris could get independent verification of this by VW or someone else with expertise to determine the true SOH of his ID3. I think it underlines the need for ID3 owners to keep an eye on the main factors which can unduly adversely affect battery SOH and hence battery life. My understanding is that the main factors are.....
1. no. of charging cycles completed (high mileage users)
2. no. of charging cycles to 100%
3. No. of DC fast charges - particularly at higher charging power - and also charging to 100%
4. No of deep discharges - close to 0%
5. Ambient temperature effects - extremes of heat and cold - which I think shouldn't concern us too much in our temperate climate. Also the ID3 BMS should largely mitigate degradation by temperature effects.
It seems to me good battery management practice involves working around the 80% to 20% charge cycles as much as possible as per VW recommendations. Also only charge to 100 % on an as needed basis for long journeys. Use home AC charging as much as possible and limit high powered DC charging to occasional use. Avoid if at all possible deep discharges - particularly close to 0. I would still like to think that with sensible and not overly cautious care of the ID3 battery - 80% +, SOH should be readily achieveable after 8 years.
PS I still don't know what the ID3 battery (62kWh) costs - is it €7k or is it double that as I've noted several references which maintain that 30% or so of the BEV cost is the battery. Which is it?
 

·
Premium Member
VW ID.3 1st Edition & Tesla M3 LR
Joined
·
7,161 Posts
18.5k miles in mine now, I rapid charge for a limited amount every couple of weeks, but never past 80%, more usually a 10-25 min charge from low battery percentage to get me wherever I’m headed.

Not noticed any degradation, but then to be fair I’m not looking either.

Your battery will wear out, as will the rest of the car, that happens from using it, obviously.

I think Battery Life does use his in a particular way, probably not typical.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
889 Posts
Is DC charging to 100% really that detrimental to the battery if it gets depleted immediately as part of a longer journey? With the rate of charge tailing off above 80%, does the rate of charge on DC at that top end (90%+) go much higher than 7.4kWh ph that you get with domestic DC charging? I thought that battery liquid cooling would take care of dissipating excessive heat in charging. Maybe that 9% loss in a year is bollocks (subject to verification) and i'm overthinking this.:D

I think the lowest i've taken the battery before some DC charging was 8%.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,452 Posts
Yeah, I saw that Battery Life video today (ironic that's the name he picked for his channel!!) and found it interesting/worrying. I'd have thought that even with a lot of rapid charging 9% in a year is still a lot! Still, it's only one car so not exactly scientific.

It does make me think though, and I've posted this before, that we're going to end up with two categories of used EVs on the market when all this ramps up some more. There will be cars owned by people with home charging, that are usually only charged to 80% that still have plenty of battery life left, and there will be other cars of the same age/mileage that were owned by people with no home charging, who did all their charging on DC rapids up above 90% each time with heavy battery degradation. As buyers in general get more savvy for this stuff and check for it before buying, those cars will be worth less on the used market. Greater depreciation of the car will be another extra hidden cost of car ownership for people who can't charge their cars at home overnight on top of their extra charging costs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
889 Posts
Yeah, I saw that Battery Life video today (ironic that's the name he picked for his channel!!) and found it interesting/worrying. I'd have thought that even with a lot of rapid charging 9% in a year is still a lot! Still, it's only one car so not exactly scientific.

It does make me think though, and I've posted this before, that we're going to end up with two categories of used EVs on the market when all this ramps up some more. There will be cars owned by people with home charging, that are usually only charged to 80% that still have plenty of battery life left, and there will be other cars of the same age/mileage that were owned by people with no home charging, who did all their charging on DC rapids up above 90% each time with heavy battery degradation. As buyers in a general get more savvy for this stuff and check for it before buying, those cars will be worth less on the used market. Greater depreciation of the car will be another extra hidden cost of car ownership for people who can't charge their cars at home overnight on top of their extra charging costs.
I've said it before- battery health is going to have to be a huge consideration in the used prices of EVs. 9% loss in a year? Those heavy rapid charger users are in danger of smashing the lower limit guarantee at 4 years, let alone at 8 years that VW are giving with the cars.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Normal use, and home charging, should give near million mile batteries. By the time we come to sell our ID3s for the next thing, the UK will still be trying to get enough BEVs onto people’s drives so there will be a healthy second hand value. It will all be alright in the end.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
446 Posts
Yeah, I saw that Battery Life video today (ironic that's the name he picked for his channel!!) and found it interesting/worrying. I'd have thought that even with a lot of rapid charging 9% in a year is still a lot! Still, it's only one car so not exactly scientific.

It does make me think though, and I've posted this before, that we're going to end up with two categories of used EVs on the market when all this ramps up some more. There will be cars owned by people with home charging, that are usually only charged to 80% that still have plenty of battery life left, and there will be other cars of the same age/mileage that were owned by people with no home charging, who did all their charging on DC rapids up above 90% each time with heavy battery degradation. As buyers in a general get more savvy for this stuff and check for it before buying, those cars will be worth less on the used market. Greater depreciation of the car will be another extra hidden cost of car ownership for people who can't charge their cars at home overnight on top of their extra charging costs.
Good post. Been thinking exactly the same but not had the time to write it up.
Wonder if you might get the bonkers situation where your battery is 25% deg after 5 years and you deliberately treat the battery like shite for a while so you get a new one!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
761 Posts
Wonder if you might get the bonkers situation where your battery is 25% deg after 5 years and you deliberately treat the battery like shite for a while so you get a new one!
You don't get a new one though, not necessarily. With the Leaf warranty at least they are only obligated to get you back above 70%. So they can replace some of the cells, or give you a reconditioned battery etc. You could take in a 69% battery and in theory come out with a 71% battery.

Of course they're not going to give you a battery that's in danger of dropping below warranty level again, but there's no guarantee of a brand spanking new 100% one.

I know that Chris was particularly abusive to his car, and I'd never charge on a rapid all the way to 100%, but 9% in a year still seems unusually high for a car with proper battery management.
 

·
Premium Member
VW ID.3 1st Edition & Tesla M3 LR
Joined
·
7,161 Posts
You don't get a new one though, not necessarily. With the Leaf warranty at least they are only obligated to get you back above 70%. So they can replace some of the cells, or give you a reconditioned battery etc. You could take in a 69% battery and in theory come out with a 71% battery.

Of course they're not going to give you a battery that's in danger of dropping below warranty level again, but there's no guarantee of a brand spanking new 100% one.

I know that Chris was particularly abusive to his car, and I'd never charge on a rapid all the way to 100%, but 9% in a year still seems unusually high for a car with proper battery management.
I can see that this 9% figure will quickly become internet fact and legend regarding the ID.3 battery…

How is he calculating his 9% loss, any idea?

If VW have given the car an 8 year/100k miles guarantee, they must be pretty confident that the battery won’t be cream crackered inside that time/mileage.
 

·
Registered
Volkwagen ID3 1st Edition
Joined
·
83 Posts
Anyone with more knowledge know if his testing method is valid, if I get it correct he's basing his results on using the same charger so it would have the same losses as last year and taking the energy delivered from the charger screen rather than a plug in monitor. Could it be possible that the charger has had software (or hardware) updates as well so is reporting differently or charging with less losses? I suppose as the charger is another year older it also could have more losses so the battery degredation is actually higher.
 

·
Premium Member
VW ID.3 1st Edition & Tesla M3 LR
Joined
·
7,161 Posts
Anyone with more knowledge know if his testing method is valid, if I get it correct he's basing his results on using the same charger so it would have the same losses as last year and taking the energy delivered from the charger screen rather than a plug in monitor. Could it be possible that the charger has had software (or hardware) updates as well so is reporting differently or charging with less losses? I suppose as the charger is another year older it also could have more losses so the battery degredation is actually higher.
If that’s the case, it’s not scientific and is no more than anecdotal evidence.

Probably best to put it in the box marked ‘outliers’ and wait and see.

My own anecdotal evidence over 10 months and nearly 20k miles now is that I haven’t noticed any degradation. As I use my car twice weekly from 100% to single digit charge levels, I think I would notice something like 9% degradation.

It’s doing well, but then I also only charge to 100% before departure on the granny or 7kW charger.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
446 Posts
I posted this on another thread - but he's just measuring juice going into the battery from the charger - not what the battery takes. On a hot day - I'll 'lose' an extra 1.5kw for the iD3 battery management (fans/cooling/ac) according to comparing the charts from the charger and from the car (via Tronity). That doesnt sound like much - but on a charge thats putting in 57kwh - over an hour. Then that 1.5kw(over an hour - 1.5kwh) suddenly becomes 2.5%... So the 9% figure (that he later says is closer to 7%) comes down closer to 5% - which many might say is fine for a year....

Thats just an example. My main point is that measuring crudely whats going in to a battery to determine its condition is not necessarily the best test for it - and relatively small errors in the measurement (or the reporting of the measurement) may lead to single digit changes in the percentage battery performance - that can look bad.

TL;DR - we need more data on the battery performance - that MUST be in the VW software/logging somewhere - but clearly not for our eyes. Yet. Such data will become vital for second hand values....
 

·
Premium Member
VW ID.3 1st Edition & Tesla M3 LR
Joined
·
7,161 Posts
TL;DR - we need more data on the battery performance - that MUST be in the VW software/logging somewhere - but clearly not for our eyes. Yet. Such data will become vital for second hand values....
The dealer software can see a lot more than any third party tool, and it can also facilitate connection between the VW secure servers and the encrypted modules on the car.

I’d expect that any used IDs in the future going back into the dealer network will be checked as part of the resale prep and the battery warranty will be availed if required.

A lot of EV owners seem very engaged with battery health/capacity, but it will only ever go one way, and it’s not something that people can do anything about really anyway.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
446 Posts
I wonder if it’s something that car mfrs could be legally forced to provide. Like the OBD data…
 

·
Premium Member
VW ID.3 1st Edition & Tesla M3 LR
Joined
·
7,161 Posts
I wonder if it’s something that car mfrs could be legally forced to provide. Like the OBD data…
I asked for my e-Golf to be checked once when I felt that it had lost some range, and the dealer said they’d be happy to take it in but that it required a charge to full, drain to a set level and then charge back to full.

That process takes a while as you can imagine, but then my ‘missing range’ seemed to return anyway, almost like the BMS had been up to stuff. 🤷
 

·
Registered
ID3 1st & e-Golf
Joined
·
5,915 Posts
I can see the kWh in the battery in the obdeleven app so the VW software must be showing the available capacity and they can easily see how the batteries are degrading.

In the app it's shown in a similar way to the e-Golf but when fully charged it only shows 55.5kWh so it can't be all the available change so VW claim 58kWh usable.
I'm keeping a record of that figure to see what happens over the time I have the car.

I haven't checked the Golf with the app for nearly a year but last October it was down less than 10% iirc. It was 2.5 years old at that point and had been charged to 100% several times a week before the first lockdown.

Incidentally, I've charged the ID3 to 100% on a rapid and it was charging at over 20kW right until the end, or if it dropped below it was only for the last 2-3%. Great for when you need 100% and the chargers aren't busy.
 

·
Registered
VW id3 Style
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter · #60 ·
Some thought provoking comments and it is a very important issue IMO for 2 reasons....
1. Battery cost as a ratio of total car cost is high (30% or so I'm led to believe) - unlike an ICE car where the engine cost is much less - 10% or something like that. Hence you don't want to get into a battery replacement situation - apart from the economics there are huge potential adverse environmental considerations. Hopefully battery refurbishment will become well developed and will save the day.
2. Suppose you are in the market for a 3yr old ID3 in 2 years time. You would want to be very sure that the battery wasn't abused. I think the dealer/VW would need at a minimum to be able to provide you with a detailed inspection report including overall verified SOH, and detailed breakdown of charging history - total no. of cycles/DC/AC charge cycle ratio etc. etc.
I had a VW e golf (new car) for 12 months at which time it was then "serviced" by the VW dealer. From memory it had only 7k km on the clock and I was very interested to find out what the actual SOH was after 12 months. After persistent nagging I was told indirectly by the service technician that the SOH was > 70%! and no further detail than that. That certainly would not do if you were a potential customer.
 
41 - 60 of 74 Posts
Top