[Paul_Moxhay]

The recent discussions on the EVDA and Plug in Britain show that there is a huge rift between us in the way we go about things. I have no doubt at all that we have similar motives and objectives and that as individuals we all want what is best for the EV world.

However, it is abundantly clear that PIB is not helping to change the ways of the EVDA and it is also clear that this rift stands to prevent us focussing on the issues that matter to us and progress being made.

So, what should I do?

I want to continue to contribute where I can be clearly this PIB vs EVDA matter is a thorn in our sides and must be resolved quickly.

So, I canvass your opinions on what you think I should do because the more I fight the EVDA position the more harm I feel I am doing. I want to be part of the solution... not a main cause of the problem!

Please vote accordingly. If you wish to comment please do but I have done it as a vote so people can comment anonymously if they wish.

Note... These are just ideas and you can vote for more than one option as they aren't really mutually exclusive

 

[fenlander]

Ignore EVDA, spend all your effort on PiB. If things change in a few months revisit it.

 

[PaulMorris]

In addition to item 2. Bring PiB discussion back here, and other public forums so what PiB are up to is in the public domain for comment and to attract members.
I'm signed up but never visit the website for discussions. It's just yet another forum to me.

 

[jontracey]

Ignore EVDA, spend all your effort on PiB. If things change in a few months revisit it.

what he said

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Ignore EVDA, spend all your effort on PiB. If things change in a few months revisit it.

yeh, the forum 'discussions' today confirm EVDA is a dead horse so just get on with PiB

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

I'm signed up but never visit the website for discussions. It's just yet another forum to me.

Agree, life's too short for another forum so solve any issues with @Paul and keep the discussion here on Speak EV.

Please also ensure that PiB cannot be taken offline again... people will come and go but PiB must continue otherwise our support is pointless.

 

[Webby]

As a newbie may I ask for a small potted history of both. Please no he said she said.
I like this forum it's great, what does a group achieve that a forum cannot? That's an open question I do not know.

 

[PaulMorris]

I like this forum it's great, what does a group achieve that a forum cannot? That's an open question I do not know.

On the latter point, an organisation is more useful than a forum for coordinating action and lobbying. Forums are great for discussion, but bad at getting things done. For an example, a body to produce guidelines for EV parking, charger deployment, provide an EV perspective to media, local & national government bodies, work with EV charging companies to consult on various issues. Champion whatever issues are hot in the EV community. That sort of thing.

 

[Webby]

I understand that of course. I have worked on numerous committees and trusts and they can all be pretty horrible. One issue is as you say coordination. Those members that get things done are often accused of not listening.
I just wonder if this open forum can provide a platform from which more people can contribute to policies etc through a wiki type system. With members being asked to vote on important issues. It's nice to have a physical get together but for a national organisation that can be problematic physically and mentally.
I will admit I do not know the issues that face the ev community but I know people here that do.
The most important thing must be numbers. How many people vote are members etc.

 

[Paul]

Just to be clear Speak EV has no intention of morphing in to any kind of organisation or members association in that way.

I like forums and more informal "talking shop" setups, organically lots can and will grow from here over time I'm sure. Personally I don't want to be directly involved in the "high up" lobbying and other things an EV organisation does/would do.

My (rather myopic) vision is to create the best online EV community for all types of EV owner and enthusiast... and that's a challenge in itself.

Whatever happens with PiB, EVDA and other clubs be assured members and representatives of all of them are of course welcome to contribute and join in here.

 

[billysielu]

I don't really understand what PIB and EVDA are - what's the tldr?

 

[AndyG]

Ditto PaulMorris bring the forum back here……other Paul's what about it

 

[Paul_Moxhay]

I didn't want the PIB section to be removed. That was @Paul's decision, not mine.

One thing is clear, the forum on the PIB web site is a total waste of time! No one wants it. @Dave Davies and I are considering removing it. The problem then is that then this forum becomes the only place where PIB issues are discussed and no where else. No one is talking about it anywhere else. It kinda ties PIB to Speak EV and I don't consider that healthy if we want PIB to develop on past just Speak EV members. I don't know what the solution to this is. @Dave Davies and I will discuss.

A potted history... mmm... would prefer to look forward, not back. The history is not a pretty sight and if we want to build bridges and patch up relationships then raking over the past is not really the best approach. Everything that has happened in the past for me is water under the bridge and can be forgotten with the right attitude. Nothing anyone has said or done to me is unforgivable and in the interest of moving forward and for everyone's benefit I will gladly forgive and forget. I hope others can do the same

As for my actions forward from here on... it is crystal clear that people think I should stop engaging with the EVDA. So I will.

It is also clear that people want PIB to continue and so, for now, it will. Regarding @Kevin Sharpe comment that it must have stability and a guarantee of continuance... I agree. But it can only continue if others step up to help. I can't do it on my own. Sorry. I have had some very welcome donations to help with the costs (thank you again) and @Dave Davies has offered to help with the management (thanks Dave). But if it is to stand any chance of continuing long-term then we will need more help. @Andrew Fenwick-Green did offer to help but now he is on the EVDA committee I suspect he will spend his time on that rather than PIB so we will need others to offer to join the management committee soon... nevertheless, he would still be welcome I am sure if he has the time

Now that I have someone else involved (@Dave Davies - thanks) I think that we stand a better chance of properly organising and becoming something akin to what we all want it to become but it is a slow process and I am someone that hates moving slowly (one of my biggest weaknesses ).

Members joining PIB has stopped entirely since we had our section here removed. This needs addressing.

So, if you (that is everyone!) wants PIB to push on we need your help. Anyone who feels they might want to help can email me at [email protected]. Don't say on this thread as the first thing I will say is email me!!! Ta.

Thanks for all your feedback and advice You cannot understand how much your help means and just how much it actually does help.

 

[PMC Paul]

I voted for Close and Compromise.

As someone very new to the whole EV community I've found it confusing enough already. Type 1, Type2, Supercharge, Fast Charge, Rapids, ChaDeMo... It's a total nightmare for a newbie!

You clearly have a lot of time, energy and enthusiasm for the EV world, but I can't help but feel that having 2 "owners associations" will only add to the confusion for actual owners.

I have some words relating to the websites for both PiB and EVDA-UK (I was going to say "advice", but it's really just my opinion - to it should be taken with a big pinch of salt).

• The sites are crap. They look and function like they were made in the early 90's. The web has come a long way since then. If you want to give the impression that you are a professional body you need to do some fund raising of some sort and get professionals in.
  
  Every time you spend £50 on a Joomla plugin/module, it's 50 wasted. There are so many free tools like google groups, dropbox, google docs, wikipedia, etc, that can help you for free in these early stages. Do we really need 15 different articles on charging standards, or could your efforts be better spent making sure that there were decent and accurate wikipedia articles on the subject?
  
  
• As you have already realised, no one want's another forum. @Paul is making a great community here and if EVDA and PiB want to engage with the EV community, they I see no harm in you coming here to discuss your ideas and get feedback. In-fact it seems that EVDA-UK is making some more effort on that front today. And thats the way it should be, the association should reach out the the community - not try to drag us into your own "walled garden".
  
  
• Do you really need the average EV owner to "join"? The whole membership thing seems like a pissing contest. If you ask the right questions via the right media, then there's no need to collect "members" to get the desired answers.
  
  As an example, on Sunday morning I reached out to the PHP community and asked a simple question. Within 12 hours I had over 300 responses from right around the world. I didn't need or ask for members, usernames, email addresses - I just made it as easy as possible for people to cast their vote. (https://twtpoll.com/gw7zecvn991qaxj)

Like I said at the start, just my opinions. Might be a little harsh, but I hope it's constructive all the same. I'm not trying to start any flame wars - this is just how I've interpreted the whole EV situation in the last few months.

Take them on board, throw them out with the bins, your choice.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

As you have already realised, no one want's another forum. @Paul is making a great community here and if EVDA and PiB want to engage with the EV community, they I see no harm in you coming here to discuss your ideas and get feedback. In-fact it seems that EVDA-UK is making some more effort on that front today. And thats the way it should be, the association should reach out the the community - not try to drag us into your own "walled garden".

I completely agree with this.... I want them to communicate here so that it makes my life easier not more difficult... then I will choose who I support based on what they actually deliver for me as an EV driver not what they say they are going to deliver.

I also have the tools here to block the 'noise sources' that I'm not interested in and ignore forums or threads if I wish.

 

[Webby]

Here here. Needed to be said and I agree.

 

[Paul_Moxhay]

@TeslaChallenge Thanks for your views.

A couple of comments on what you said:

The sites are crap. They look and function like they were made in the early 90's. The web has come a long way since then. If you want to give the impression that you are a professional body you need to do some fund raising of some sort and get professionals in.

Can't agree more but until we get enough members not only willing to join but willing to put their hands into their pockets and pay to join just who is going to pay for these "professionals"?

It is a bit of a chicken-egg situation isn't it but just complaining about the quality of the web site design won't provide the cash needed to improve it. If there are any professional web designers out there willing to help for free then please get in touch... we need a designer, not a developer as I can do the techie bits but as you can see, I am rubbish at design!!!

As you have already realised, no one want's another forum. @@Paul is making a great community here and if EVDA and PiB want to engage with the EV community, they I see no harm in you coming here to discuss your ideas and get feedback. In-fact it seems that EVDA-UK is making some more effort on that front today. And thats the way it should be, the association should reach out the the community - not try to drag us into your own "walled garden".

I actually disagree with this one in so far as IMO we need both. The issue for me is not that Speak EV isn't a good community... clearly it is and I support it wholeheartedly. It is more than if we want PIB to be across all online communities and even across off-line communities as well then it must be independent of Speak EV and everyone else.

May be in these early days it makes sense to carry on with using Speak EV as the main discussion forum for PIB but what about all the others on other forums that don't want to join Speak EV... to them, yet another forum!

Then there is also the issue of control and self-determination. Paul closed our section and that was his right as forum owner but that then means that PIB is not in control of its own methods of communication if it is subject to the whims of others. I believe that to have credibility it needs control of its own destiny and its own resources.

For these reasons I feel that eventually it will need its own forum at some stage but for now we are closing it as no one is using it. It may reopen when we can justify it.

Do you really need the average EV owner to "join"? The whole membership thing seems like a pissing contest. If you ask the right questions via the right media, then there's no need to collect "members" to get the desired answers.

Again I disagree. The purpose long-term of PIB is to influence future policy and to do that we have to be able to have a membership to represent. We cannot possible put ourselves forward as representing all EV drivers as many may not want us to represent their views and so we can only represent our members. Without members... i.e. people that have given us a mandate to represent their views... we have no mandate.

Collecting members, as you put it, is essential especially if we are to be able to ask for dues to pay for the professional services such as web designers etc that we both agree are badly needed.

I do appreciate your opinions though and they have gone into the mix to be considered.

 

[Lee Dalton]

I think that the key thing is to pick an issue and get behind it as a core issue to be addressed. Lobby, advertise, talk, and generally get into the thick of it with all the related parties.
If it's going to be charging infrastructure then PiB needs to open a dialogue with all of the manufacturers and suppliers, the networks, councils and government. It's a massive job, very time consuming and needs to be done probably for a decent length of time before anyone even admits that PiB exists in a beneficial way. Whether you represent 1 or 10,000 ev drivers is largely irrelevant in these early day. The fact that you are prepared to stand up as a consistent voice is the main thing.

 

[Paul]

For what it's worth my current view is that I wont offer up forums until groups have "established themselves" not just as an entity, but more to the point on here. This provides a certain level of stability and also assurances that it wont be a "dead" forum. This is the same logic for all groups/clubs. Personally I don't want to play favourites or be seen to endorse one or the other above anyone else. If there's a load of chatter and it's good natured about any group, club or association, at that point I think it's worth considering a dedicated forum. Not before.

On my old forum we had threads with thousands of posts for groups and clubs, and they all co-existed in relative peace. However the "old guard" clubs/associations tended to pretty much keep themselves to themselves.

In terms of the former PiB forum, I closed it down when Paul C said he was leaving Speak EV for good and there was apparently no future for PiB... Over the following few days that situation changed, but the web (and this forum) move fast and I felt it inappropriate to have a forum out there for a group considered at that time to be dead with a leader never coming back. We've talked it out since then and Paul C and I have agreed to disagree on that decision.

The old posts are all still here, but most of it seems to be outdated. I can restore them quickly to this general club/groups forum if Paul C thinks it'd be helpful, but I get the feeling it's better to move on.

 

[Paul_Moxhay]

@Lee Dalton The problem is that without members exactly what is our policy? What are the issues people want us to have that dialogue about? I am not prepared to have that discussion based on my own views because I know that my own views may not be representative. If I am to stand up and talk to others and say what PIB thinks then I need to know what its members thinks first or else how can I represent them?

To me members are the key to the success of PIB. Without members we are nothing, we will have no money to do anything constructive, we will have no volunteers from which to benefit from their skills and we will not be able to stand up in front of the industry as say clearly who we represent... we will represent our members views... not my views or anybody else's and I feel this is important.