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As with dk, you are mistaking me for a Leaver. Branding anyone who isn't a rabid Remainer as a Leaver is potentially a self-fulfilling 'prophesy'.
Fair point. I'll accept SMART objectives from anyone who isn't a rabid remainer then. Are you really saying that nobody at all can actually put their finger on a concrete reason why they wanted to leave except that they wanted to leave for its own sake? Nobody at all? Why on earth are they all so fired up about it then if it's just an abstract concept?
The tide is coming in, so we need to move.
Too late to move. We just need to try and keep our heads above the water now.
 

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.................................. no tangible benefit to date unless, as asked, you can specify some?
Clearly you have once again failed to understand what I said. You just repeat such demands like a broken record.

As to your convent analogy. Not many analogies work - but yours is perverse. Because leaving is actually the opposite of joining a convent. It's like leaving a convent to make your own way in the world outside such a cloistered and controlled environment where individuality is frowned upon.
 

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choosing to move to a convent as people used to back in the day and therefore surrendering all material possessions etc to the church (no idea if they still do that) - impossible to justify to someone who relies on facts and figures, but to someone who's making decisions on faith and doesn't worry about facts or tangible benefits it makes sense?
Using your analogy it clearly depends on what is important to the person. If worldly possessions are unimportant to you but the next life is, then moving to a convent makes sense. You cannot ask how can you measure it in this life nor understand why the loss of so many things that you may hold dear (family, possessions, etc) don't matter as much to that person as to you. It is their opinion and why should they be denied it despite the fact that it impacts upon you as their reduction in consumption ultimately reduces living standards for us all in a trading situation?
Too late to move. We just need to try and keep our heads above the water now.
Good use of an alternative meaning of move! ;) But just because you cannot leave doesn't mean you have to just sit their wishing that something else was happening.
 

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I don't think there's much point getting individual Leavers to admit they were wrong. They aren't to blame for being taken in by what was a carefully choreographed campaign that led us to where we are. I do think though it is worth it to try and get a mutual understanding.
The problem is that when the next election rolls around if they haven't come to terms with being duped they will just vote for Boris again. It's been proven that being a liar and generally crap at his job isn't a problem for him because people are so attached to brexit now.

The only way out of this disaster is to undo it. Maybe not rejoin but at least get very very close to the EU, like EEA membership or something basically the same but with an idiot-friendly name. And somehow we have to get people to vote for that.
 

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The nearest analogy is the difference between some twenty-somethings cynically analysing the benefit of staying with parents and gaining all of the advantages that flow from that against others who seek to break away and become independent adults despite there being obvious financial and social implications.

Clearly, the second young adult would be unable to list any economic or financial benefits arising from such a leaving plan but nevertheless would still prefer that.
I didn't ask for you to list any economic or financial benefits. The second young adult in your example can obviously list numerous benefits such as not having to sneak past their parents' bedroom or explain why they were out all night. Or perhaps they just wanted to have loud parties. Or maybe they just want freedom to make their own decision about where they live and what sort of furniture to buy. Lots of quantifiable benefits, and different people would list different benefits.

But for Brexit apparently nothing beneficial can be quantified except you suggest some people wanted to control immigration?
 

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The only way out of this disaster is to undo it. Maybe not rejoin but at least get very very close to the EU, like EEA membership or something basically the same but with an idiot-friendly name. And somehow we have to get people to vote for that.
You mean something like people were sold in 1973 and voted for in 1975?
But for Brexit apparently nothing beneficial can be quantified except you suggest some people wanted to control immigration?
Or the ability to do things to best suit the UK rather than be a compromise based on the desires of the other EU27 in addition? A "one-size" fits all approach doesn't work (viz the Euro) and the suspicion that some people hold is that the Franco/German alliance rig things to suit themselves at the expense of the others. The treatment of the Greeks by the Germans in their recent financial crisis has been appalling and the Greek economy and young people will suffer for generations to come, and let's not get started on the complete abdication of the French in particular with the migrant crisis in Spain / Greece is possibly worse as both the migrants and the southern European states are suffering.
 

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Or the ability to do things to best suit the UK rather than be a compromise based on the desires of the other EU27 in addition? A "one-size" fits all approach doesn't work (viz the Euro) and the suspicion that some people hold is that the Franco/German alliance rig things to suit themselves at the expense of the others. The treatment of the Greeks by the Germans in their recent financial crisis has been appalling and the Greek economy and young people will suffer for generations to come, and let's not get started on the complete abdication of the French in particular with the migrant crisis in Spain / Greece is possibly worse as both the migrants and the southern European states are suffering.
Right, so can you write that in SMART terms? i.e. rather than just claiming that one-size fits all doesn't work say how not being subject to that will benefit an individual in the UK in some way (doesn't have to be financially)?

You give examples such as the Euro (doesn't apply to the UK) or the Greek/Spanish economy (doesn't apply to the UK). I don't want generalities, are there really no specific benefits that affect people here?
 

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................But for Brexit apparently nothing beneficial can be quantified............................
See --- I rest my case. You just refuse to let your brain absorb what I said. Any 'benefit', however you wish to define that nebulous term, was not a consideration for many who voted leave. So how can it be quantified?
 

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"Success" from where we are will be ending the discussion and trying to do the best for this country in what will be increasingly unstable times (insert bogeymen here) with the need to resolve the nationalist questions in Scotland, Ireland and possibly Wales.
I would suggest that a satisfactory resolution will differ from country to country, for reference see map of the UK by results of the 2016 referendum and 2019 General Election; I would also add that the elephant in the room is the nationalist question in England.
 

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Clearly you have once again failed to understand what I said. You just repeat such demands like a broken record.

As to your convent analogy. Not many analogies work - but yours is perverse. Because leaving is actually the opposite of joining a convent. It's like leaving a convent to make your own way in the world outside such a cloistered and controlled environment where individuality is frowned upon.
Id argue not, for the majority of the population brexit means only restrictions - freedom of movement is restricted, what you will be able to afford to buy will likely be restricted, with the massive bill of Brexit to date on the economy then restrictions on the amount the government can afford to spend on us - that sounds like the analogy of moving to a convent. Individualism society is alive and well within the EU and the UK is able to contribute to the EU laws that form the least individual parts of EU, after Brexit our trade deals will be dictated to us by the largest trade partners like the US, being forced to accept standards by a trade partner out to get the most beneficial deal for them doesn't sound great for individualism

Using your analogy it clearly depends on what is important to the person. If worldly possessions are unimportant to you but the next life is, then moving to a convent makes sense. You cannot ask how can you measure it in this life nor understand why the loss of so many things that you may hold dear (family, possessions, etc) don't matter as much to that person as to you.
I agree, the analogy highlights probably where the main split is over Brexit and why many cannot say why we would be better off with Brexit, it comes down to a type of "faith in euroscepticism" and hence hardcore leavers are unable to explain the benefits in real terms and hardcore remainers are unable to understand the decision and continue to ask for facts and reasons, its probably largely why reconciliation at this point is hard to see and as Brexit bites it makes it less likely that many will.

As to questioning it, personally I think if the decision is likely to affect those not making the decision and would hurt many than it is right to be able to question the decision and ask for justification - be it a religious decision or brexit
 

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it comes down to a type of "faith in euroscepticism" and hence hardcore leavers are unable to explain the benefits in real terms and hardcore remainers are unable to understand the decision and continue to ask for facts and reasons
Yes, I cannot understand why anyone bothered voting when they saw no benefit to leaving. I accept though that they did vote, and that they are telling the truth when they say there was no quantifiable reason for their vote. Blind faith is a strange thing.
 

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like EEA membership or something basically the same but with an idiot-friendly name.
Maybe the deal we have in a year's time will look something like that anyway. There's no point stressing up to heart failure for the next 12 months. May as well get on with life till then.
 

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Yes, I cannot understand why anyone bothered voting when they saw no benefit to leaving. I accept though that they did vote, and that they are telling the truth when they say there was no quantifiable reason for their vote. Blind faith is a strange thing.
To be fair Its not just blind faith, the voting from 2016 also had an amount of anti-establismentism, and an amount of mis-understanding of the issue or the outcome and believing many of the mistruths spread during the referendum - sadly now its likely we will never know how large those amounts were in the final "leave" vote by ways of a final peoples vote.

The fact that very few listed the EU as an issue pre-2016 however suggests it wasn't really that big an issue at the time

 

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freedom of movement is restricted, what you will be able to afford to buy will likely be restricted,
But for many leavers those are not important. They might need a passport to go on holiday, but most have one anyway even if they don't strictly need it. And many don't eat avocados or other foreign foods, so again not relevant (except there probably is some stuff they do eat but don't know it's imported).

Yes, I cannot understand why anyone bothered voting when they saw no benefit to leaving. I accept though that they did vote, and that they are telling the truth when they say there was no quantifiable reason for their vote. Blind faith is a strange thing.
Why do you think that the ones who saw no benefit did vote?* Your doing the "if you didn't vote remain you're a Leaver" thing again. The world is a lot more than black & white.
* About 1/3rd of the pool didn't vote.
 

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To be fair Its not just blind faith, the voting from 2016 also had an amount of anti-establismentism, and an amount of mis-understanding of the issue or the outcome and believing many of the mistruths spread during the referendum - sadly now its likely we will never know how large those amounts were in the final "leave" vote by ways of a final peoples vote.

The fact that very few listed the EU as an issue pre-2016 however suggests it wasn't really that big an issue at the time

This paper People’s stated reasons for voting leave or remain - UK in a changing Europe says the anti-establishment feeling was actually the smallest percentage with immigration then EU laws then money being far more popular reasons why people voted leave. Those of course are the figures for the reasons why people voted then (or at least what they claimed were their reasons) and may not match how people feel about things now and indeed some may have had other reasons even then.
 

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Why do you think that the ones who saw no benefit did vote?* Your doing the "if you didn't vote remain you're a Leaver" thing again. The world is a lot more than black & white.
* About 1/3rd of the pool didn't vote.
Because I'm asking for the opinions of those who did vote leave and I'm being told that nobody saw any benefit to leaving. I'm drawing a possibly erroneous conclusion that means some of those who saw no benefit must have voted leave. If anyone here did vote leave and actually saw a benefit then they're free to correct me.
 

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But for many leavers those are not important. They might need a passport to go on holiday, but most have one anyway even if they don't strictly need it. And many don't eat avocados or other foreign foods, so again not relevant (except there probably is some stuff they do eat but don't know it's imported).
But just because it’s not important to you doesn’t mean it’s right to take it away from those who it is important to, especially without good reasoning or potential benefits, and it’s equally fair for the people who find those things to be important to then say “ok fine, so what benefits am I getting for these things I’m losing”
 

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You mean something like people were sold in 1973 and voted for in 1975?
That's not available any more though. The world has moved on... Trying to turn back time is what got us into this mess.

Maybe the deal we have in a year's time will look something like that anyway. There's no point stressing up to heart failure for the next 12 months. May as well get on with life till then.
That's easy to say from the comfortable position of someone who isn't about to lose their job.
 

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I think there are one clear and measurable benefits:
  1. Higher rate tax payers will pay less tax and off-shoring of assets will be easier.
  2. Due to labour shortages, the government have promised to make it easier for economic migrants across the globe. This will result in lower wage bills for employers.
  3. Because we won’t have a trade deal of any sort for ages, we will have to reduce import tariffs to zero. This will make foreign goods cheaper and drive more UK based businesses to off-shore their production.
Is that SMART enough for you? :)
 
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