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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In another thread I mentioned the expected £5bn shortfall in fuel duties from EV uptake.

Maybe part of the mitigation of that is to add duty to energy by quantity.

Let's say, by way of example, 1p/MJ.

So a kWh of electricity would be 3.6MJ, or 3.6p duty.

A litre of petrol, which has a calorific content of 33.6MJ, is 33.6p/litre, noting that the tax is on the actual energy, not on how much you get out of it. So although you might only get 10kWh worth out of petrol, you pay for that inefficiency because you pay for the actual energy content.

Diesel is then a bit more, 1 litre being 43.1MJ so 43.1p/litre.

Just a though to avoid any 'bias'. Duty is then proportional not just to the energy but also how efficiently you use it.
 

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Audi eTron 55
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In another thread I mentioned the expected £5bn shortfall in fuel duties from EV uptake.

Maybe part of the mitigation of that is to add duty to energy by quantity.

Let's say, by way of example, 1p/MJ.

So a kWh of electricity would be 3.6MJ, or 3.6p duty.

A litre of petrol, which has a calorific content of 33.6MJ, is 33.6p/litre, noting that the tax is on the actual energy, not on how much you get out of it. So although you might only get 10kWh worth out of petrol, you pay for that inefficiency because you pay for the actual energy content.

Diesel is then a bit more, 1 litre being 43.1MJ so 43.1p/litre.

Just a though to avoid any 'bias'. Duty is then proportional not just to the energy but also how efficiently you use it.
I like that quite a lot. Ingenious way to incentivise efficiency.

Do we get a discount for renewably sourced energy in donaldworld?
 

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Mercedes EQA 300
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Could that be another reason for government wanting home evse’s to be “smart”, it would let them differentiate between electricity for ev use and home use so they could tax ev electricity without taxing home use?
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Could that be another reason for government wanting home evse’s to be “smart”, it would let them differentiate between electricity for ev use and home use so they could tax ev electricity without taxing home use?
Yep!
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I like that quite a lot. Ingenious way to incentivise efficiency.

Do we get a discount for renewably sourced energy in donaldworld?
Absolutely. Not sure how you'd pick the red electrons from the green ones, but in principle yes.
 

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Fair enough, but that isn't a new or innovative concept and isn't the main problem. The problem is how government can apply duty to electricity being used for road vehicles without it being avoidable.

Liquid fuels are transported and sold by registered fuel businesses, so there's traceability of the fuel supply and any duty-free fuel going to purposes other than road vehicles is dyed, making it difficult if not impossible for people to use dyed duty-free fuel in road vehicles without a risk of it being detected and facing prosecution.

How do you achieve the equivalent for electric? Assuming that it isn't acceptable to apply duty to all electricity and that the electric used in homes and businesses for other purposes remains duty free, how would government apply a duty on electricity being used to charge road vehicles?

It could apply duty to public charging, that as a stand-alone measure would disadvantage the users of public charging facilities, but how could it apply it to home charging? Even if it mandated metering of home charge-points, how could it stop people use Mode 2 (granny) charging using duty-free electric to charge the vehicles? And how could it detect that?

If you find a way to 'dye' electrons and solve that problem then I'm sure HM Treasury would like to know!!!

[Edit] ignore that last paragraph, there is a way but it is somewhat intrusive, Government mandates the installation of power meter within the EV on the charging supply to the battery. It could be read remotely with regular invoicing of the duty payable.
 

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Fair duty would be zero. A per mile charge for all commercial vehicles at 1p per mile per tonne would be reasonable, maybe also applicable to private vehicles above a 10k mile free allowance.
 

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eNiro 64kWh 2021. Ioniq 38kWh 2020.
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I think that we will be taxed by distance and not fuel/energy used and this will be a tariff dependent on how efficient the car is. Looking at the current tax/duty for different cars, here is my estimate to cover the loss of tax/duty including vehicle tax based on 10,000 miles per year:

Small efficient car: £720
Medium car: £1200
Large SUV: £1800+

Then you will need to add electricity costs to this. Not looking good, but the tax take has to come from somewhere.
 

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Looking for a new EV...again 😂
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It is just a matter of time I guess before they find a way to tax us even on the air we are "consuming" walking around. Every government around the world is money hungry...no exceptions.
 

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cameras everywhere, bill by distance/weight. Heavier cars pay more per mile due to the increased wear and tear on the infrastructure. So you’re paying for congestion+wear and tear.
 

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Nissan LEAF30
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Congratulations @donald , it's another "Granny" tax. Charging tax on electricity will result in the poor having to choose between heating their home and food. Don't look logically at the facts of green and red elections, that will be the spin.
Motorists are looked at as a cash cow, as in the distant past having a car was a sign of having disposable income. Following the pandemic Governments of all hues need massively greater incomes and will come after motorists.
 

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Looking for a new EV...again 😂
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cameras everywhere, bill by distance/weight. Heavier cars pay more per mile due to the increased wear and tear on the infrastructure. So you’re paying for congestion+wear and tear.
What we are going to do with the people who are above...lets say 90 kg (200 lbs) in body weight, charge them by the gram or so above the "legal" weight? 😂
 

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Even if we were to go down the route of an energy-based duty (and as others have shown, there are many ways to fill the £5bn gap), simply setting the duty on the energy content of the fuel used is insufficient. At least three other factors should be included:

1. The embodied energy used to make the fuel. For petrol this accumulates pretty heavily between the time oil is pumped from ground until petrol is pumped into the car.
2. A carbon price, including the embedded carbon used to make the fuel as well as the tailpipe emissions.
3. An environmental factor - to fund reparations to (for example) fishermen whose livelihood was destroyed by Clearwater or repairing wildlife populations devastated by the Torrey Canyon (anyone remember that?)

Be interesting to see how that stacks up.
 

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How about a tax on the calorific value of fossil fuels? If you’re using electricity when the grid is 60% fossil fuels you pay higher tax than if you shift your usage to times when the grid is 80% renewables.
 

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Ioniq 5
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What we are going to do with the people who are above...lets say 90 kg (200 lbs) in body weight, charge them by the gram or so above the "legal" weight? 😂
Random roadside spot checks by a special 'Weights and Measures Enforcement' department.
 

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Kia e-Niro MY20 64 kWh - Gravity Blue
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Why not pay for the kilometers you make? I think this was discussed in another thread, but it would be pretty easy to tax you on an estimate of the kilometers you make per year. Then each year your odometer is verified (e.g. during MOT, or during the revision or whatever) and you either get a refund if you made less kilometers or you pay for the extra kilometers you made. The price per kilometer can be made dependent on type of fuel, size and weight of car etc.

The advantage of this model is that you pay for the actual use you make of the roads, rather than for the energy you spent making the kilometers. The correlation between energy spent and wear and tear on the roads is in my opinion difficult to establish since there are so many factors at stake that influence energy use (temperature, type of terrain, type of daily commute etc).
 

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Looking for a new EV...again 😂
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Reading some of the replies here I am starting to wonder why the people (in general) are enjoying so much to be controlled by the 'Big Brother".... The social experiment over the last two years had proved that people love to be told how to live and what they can and cannot do..... This is a slippery slope guys. Are you sure that we want to go there?
Cameras (perhaps we don't have enough already in the UK), traveled miles checks, vehicle weight checks and the list goes on and on.......
 

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Nissan LEAF30
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Why not pay for the kilometers you make? I think this was discussed in another thread, but it would be pretty easy to tax you on an estimate of the kilometers you make per year. Then each year your odometer is verified (e.g. during MOT, or during the revision or whatever) and you either get a refund if you made less kilometers or you pay for the extra kilometers you made. The price per kilometer can be made dependent on type of fuel, size and weight of car etc.
Ah, so my "Speedo" sensor cable has just accidentally got disconnected. So my mileage isn't being recorded at the moment, I'll get around to reconnecting it at some point....
 
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