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Many cars already have a telematics unit fitted so it would not be a big leap to use one to disable a vehicle if the VED is not paid. It would be easy enough to only disable it when it's shut down. A text warning and automated phone payment system would then re enable it.
And it is simple to disconnect it on a Zoe and a LEAF at least. What do you get through the unit that you cannot get for free in terms of Sat Nav etc. on your phone?
 

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Again, the poor tend to spunk their money and DD's will bounce, be cancelled, back to enforcement / collection costs. What you need is a model that forces payment of travel taxation by car at the exact time the owner wants to travel, which is what we have now.

If we all bought ICE fuel net of tax and had to pay the duty tax a vat after the fact monthly by DD , how much do you think would be avoided / evaded / just not paid ?
The DoT estimate is that 10% of vehicles on the road have no road tax, my guess would be that it is a lot higher than that already. Making the saving £1,000+ rather than around £150 would make a huge difference.
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
Look at what Gov has done for the national charging infrastructure. These are fixed devices, easily monitored, connected, etc..

... and ... it is a total arseup, even with just 300k cars involved.

Now imagine Gov doing something more complicated, with less connectivity, for 33M cars plus vans and HGV.

LOL ... C'mon ...!
 

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GOLF GTE PHEV
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And it is simple to disconnect it on a Zoe and a LEAF at least. What do you get through the unit that you cannot get for free in terms of Sat Nav etc. on your phone?
The car sends data to the server. If this stops, the car fails to restart the next time you try.
What do you think they will use for road pricing?

This will only happen when all cars have a telematics unit, sim card and gps so once a day/week or whatever, your driving data is uploaded and relevant data given the 'roads pricing server' for billing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
The DoT estimate is that 10% of vehicles on the road have no road tax
Scare stories. If they knew then they could just fine those people. Else, they don't know so why are they guessing, and what basis are the guesses made?
 

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It is going to create a hole in the government finances if EVs continued to be taxed like they are now, of course.

Vehicle related tax take (£millions, year to March 2020 so as to ignore pandemic variations):
  • VED paid by businesses - 2,002
  • Fuel duties - 27,572
  • VED paid by households - 4,982
Total tax revenue for period 560,361
Vehicle related total 34,556 (6.17% of tax take above)

There are roughly 31,696,000 cars registered, if we take all the fuel duties and household VED and divide it by cars = £1,090 per car.

Fuel duties though are more than just private cars "Fuel duty is levied per unit of fuel purchased and is included in the price paid for petrol, diesel and other fuels used in vehicles or for heating." so would need to split that out a bit... I don't know how to translate final oil consumption to fuel duties (or a breakdown of fuel duties) but transport accounts for about 75% of final oil consumption according to this (March 2020) so 75% of 27,572 = 20,679. We could take HGVs out of this as well if we are focusing on light vehicle use (taxed and fuelled similarly whether private of business), HGV's appear to consume roughly 18% of road fuel according to this so take 18% off 20,679 you get to 16,956.

Recalculating per vehicle tax take: 16,956 + 4,982 = 21,938 million, per car £692.

£692 per year wouldn't be an obscene VED rate for the privelege of using a car, right? Especially if you had some brackets based on efficiency and/or weight like we have now for CO2 emissions so that more efficient EVs were charged less.

There's a lot of conflating of business and private above but it is for a rough idea - feel free to criticise the above as I have almost certainly missed something here for example, VED lost through people evading it. Also, the VAT implication of less duty, so perhaps 20% or more needs to added to my £692 in terms of the per car impact.

Better still, what about putting that tax burden on air travel? As more EVs take over from ICE and the road fuel duties reduce, recover that by increasing tax on aviation to hopefully reduce demand there - double win... is aviation fuel taxed at all currently?
 

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ZE50 GT Line R135 CCS, Mar '20
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Toll roads. Motorways/A roads and a fair few B roads wouldn't require much more than entry/exit ANPR cameras.

For other roads probably have them on the entry/exit to towns/villages and charge on an average distance between where you've been clocked.
This case wouldn't be amazingly accurate, and there'd be edge cases where you could theoretically drive without ever paying anything extra.
 

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The justification for the current petrol and diesel taxes is simply: polluter pays.

As we proceed with the transition from ICE to EV, and the power of the ICE lobby to hold the country to ransom dwindles, for a while the main adjustment will be: polluter pays even more.

There will be a further somewhat overlapping transition, as we move to a situation where there won't be sufficient ICEs on the road to shoulder the burden alone, where the state will seek other sources of revenue. They already take 20% VAT on public charging and 5% on home charging. The 'polluter pays' mantra will continue, with higher taxation for peak electricity use than off peak, as the latter is more likely to be carbon neutral. Increasing numbers of road tolls are likely too -- 'smart' motorways already have the cameras -- and removal of the existing 'perks', including the zero VED.

So, not one thing, but a mixture of them.
 

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GOLF GTE PHEV
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Very draconian and easily bypassed.
Not easily bypassed by the average motorist but there will be cheat/bypass devices available inevitably.

Draconian penalties may be needed, eg seizure of you car by the police (whose ANPR system receives a list of cars that have disappeared off the billing system)
 

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Just stick 1% on income tax? Will that fill the hole?
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 ·
The justification for the current petrol and diesel taxes is simply: polluter pays.
But it is not actually true.

The 5% VAT on electricity is underpaying CO2 emissions on g/kWh generation, by a half (versus carbon credits), while the fuel duty is overpaying by 7 times.

That is not 'polluter pays', that is 'some sorts of polluters under pay, others get stung'.
 

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The justification for the current petrol and diesel taxes is simply: polluter pays.
No it isn't - it's political expediency. There's no agreed definition of "pollution" - it was at one time CO2 but perhaps should include particulates and NOx? Motorists are just whipping boys that the public accepts being taxed, and all of the revenue raised by road fuel duties just goes into general taxation and is not hypothecated for environmental mitigation. Does it have any real effect on motoring habits - I'd say that it is good to move motorists from one type of vehicle fuel to another, but has little effect on people's choice of vehicle, their annual mileage or driving efficiency (if it did there'd be many fewer MPVs, SUVs or private vans on the roads, mileage would come down significantly and people would achieve WLTP).
 

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But it is not actually true.

The 5% VAT on electricity is underpaying CO2 emissions on g/kWh generation, by a half (versus carbon credits), while the fuel duty is overpaying by 7 times.

That is not 'polluter pays', that is 'some sorts of polluters under pay, others get stung'.
A few issues with that but, basically, look, there is a polluter and they are paying. That there are some other polluters who are paying less doesn't change that. Perhaps it makes it less 'fair', but not necessarily.

It's important to understand that when most economists say taxation is 'fair', they don't mean proportional (and especially not regressive), but progressive i.e. the rich pay a higher percentage of their income than the poor, even for the same amount. So, for example, income tax is (mostly) progressive, thus fair(ish), but VAT is regressive, so very unfair. On this basis, as the poor require home electricity more than they require ICE fuel, it is fair that the taxation regimes differ. That's not to say the whole thing is particularly fair/progressive in other ways -- it's all terribly messy -- but such is the real world.

Source: What Is a Progressive Tax?

I think we have to acknowledge an element of political expediency to it all, as @dk6780 suggests, but it is too cynical to say that is the only reason.

Kind regards
- Garry
 

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This is all assuming EV ownership is going to take off like wildfire. Right now EV’s are unaffordable and inconvenient except mostly for privileged old men.
 

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This is all assuming EV ownership is going to take off like wildfire. Right now EV’s are unaffordable and inconvenient except mostly for privileged old men.
I've promised to leave mine to my grandson, that should keep the ball rolling.
 

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Could that be another reason for government wanting home evse’s to be “smart”, it would let them differentiate between electricity for ev use and home use so they could tax ev electricity without taxing home use?
Granny cable in a 3 pin?
 
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