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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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Discussion Starter · #61 ·
It's important to understand that when most economists say taxation is 'fair', they don't mean proportional (and especially not regressive), but progressive i.e. the rich pay a higher percentage of their income than the poor, even for the same amount.
I think you need to dwell on this a bit.

Who is getting the cream of cash-saving benefits from BEVs?

Who is getting creamed on fuel duty for only being able to afford bangers, nor able to afford houses with driveways?

Just the other day, 'one of our colleagues' here was happy to announce how he'd go fill his boots at tax payers' expense at the weekends rather than charge his car at home.

If you want 'the poor' to be able to afford new BEVs, then maybe some money needs to be put back in their pockets.

Here's a storming idea; tax credits for fuel purchases .. all your duty refunded if you put it towards the purchase of a new BEV.

Top idea, I think? What say you?
 

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I think you need to dwell on this a bit.

Who is getting the cream of cash-saving benefits from BEVs?

Who is getting creamed on fuel duty for only being able to afford bangers, nor able to afford houses with driveways?

Just the other day, 'one of our colleagues' here was happy to announce how he'd go fill his boots at tax payers' expense at the weekends rather than charge his car at home.

If you want 'the poor' to be able to afford new BEVs, then maybe some money needs to be put back in their pockets.

Here's a storming idea; tax credits for fuel purchases .. all your duty refunded if you put it towards the purchase of a new BEV.

Top idea, I think? What say you?
I thought that was rather a mean-spirited dig at someone who's merely taking up an offer the local council made him for free charging. If you prefer it, think of it as an incentive to switch from ICE to EV. Without such offers there would be fewer switchers. It's part of the 'deal' at the moment. Like a weapons amnesty: hand in your bad thing and get a good thing in return.

The poor don't fund the state, by the way, as you seem to think. Although they pay some tax, they are net recipients from the state coffers. The rich don't fund it either, for the most part, as there are too few of them, and they are good at avoiding the most punitive rates. The middle fund it, mostly. So, EV perks are largely transfers from some of the middle to some others of the middle.
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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Discussion Starter · #63 ·
I thought that was rather a mean-spirited dig at someone who's merely taking up an offer the local council made him for free charging. If you prefer it, think of it as an incentive to switch from ICE to EV. Without such offers there would be fewer switchers.
That's where I regret our opinions have to differ. On the contrary I think at this stage in the game using charge points in such a way is going to reduce uptate.

I have previously, in years gone by (like 2015) said yes, let's all pile onto the chargers that are there for fear folks will think they are unused. That is no longer the issue.

The issue for would-be users now is whether there is a charger available for them. I am less concerned about the 'free juice' filling one's boots but the fact that one is blocking the charger for someone else who might not have home charging at all.

So, what, the argument is that it is best just to take it because it'll just as likely be someone else filling their boots? OK, then let them, at least I don't feel any guilty urges that I am blocking a charger unnecessarily for someone else who might actually need it.

Might as well just park an ICE on if for all the benefit it brings.
 

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Kia e-Niro MY20 64 kWh - Gravity Blue
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Just the other day, 'one of our colleagues' here was happy to announce how he'd go fill his boots at tax payers' expense at the weekends rather than charge his car at home.
So just because he's on this forum and drives an EV, he's a cheap skate who's living off the taxpayer's money? Do you know his personal situation? Why is he not entitled to using the charging service and somebody else is? What's the monthly income threshold as from which it is allowed to use free public chargers?

Neither you nor I are in the position to form an opinion on this forum member's behaviour, let alone publicly denounce it.
 

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If the Ayuntamiento want to pay for my fuel, who am I to refuse them?

It’s the least I can do to help them meet their sustainability targets. ;)
 

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That's where I regret our opinions have to differ. On the contrary I think at this stage in the game using charge points in such a way is going to reduce uptate.

I have previously, in years gone by (like 2015) said yes, let's all pile onto the chargers that are there for fear folks will think they are unused. That is no longer the issue.

The issue for would-be users now is whether there is a charger available for them. I am less concerned about the 'free juice' filling one's boots but the fact that one is blocking the charger for someone else who might not have home charging at all.

So, what, the argument is that it is best just to take it because it'll just as likely be someone else filling their boots? OK, then let them, at least I don't feel any guilty urges that I am blocking a charger unnecessarily for someone else who might actually need it.

Might as well just park an ICE on if for all the benefit it brings.
You are overthinking this. If free charging is offered, people will take up the offer. This is not a moral failing on their part. Inasmuch as it convinces people to swap their ICEs for EVs, it's a positive thing for the local and global environment.

If the chargers are too busy, the choices are to provide more (increase supply), or raise the price (reduce demand).
 

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Let's explore this: fuel duty isn't the only tax that pays for roads. Road Fund Licence payments aren't solely used for roads. I bet nobody on this forum knows the exact sources and sums of our country's annual road building and maintenance budget.
The question in this thread's title is only answerable if we assume our roads are currently funded purely from RFL and fuel duty. In that case, I'd support a proportion as emissions tax (as we currently have), existing fuel duty, and another EV tax based on annual mileage. This could be verified annually perhaps at MOT centres. These would no doubt need to be verified/regulated, perhaps government-run to avoid dishonest backstreet testing centres.
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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Discussion Starter · #68 ·
So just because he's on this forum and drives an EV, he's a cheap skate who's living off the taxpayer's money? Do you know his personal situation? Why is he not entitled to using the charging service and somebody else is? What's the monthly income threshold as from which it is allowed to use free public chargers?

Neither you nor I are in the position to form an opinion on this forum member's behaviour, let alone publicly denounce it.
No, not because of 'that' and you know you are troublemaking by phrasing it like that.

I know the situation because he was generous enough with his explanation. He was very specific and goes to charge at a Council charge point at the weekends. He's blocking the charger because he could charge at home but is choosing to charge locally.

In my book, that is blocking a charge point because he did not NEED to use that public charger, he could have used his own.. You are free to have a different opinion. I invited him to explain if there was any other reason to look at the situation differently, and he declined to offer such a reason.

In my opinion, even if you have to pay for electricity, anyone who charges on a public charge point when they could easily charge at home is blocking that public charge point.

That is my opinion, and I'm entitled to hold it.
 

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No, not because of 'that' and you know you are troublemaking by phrasing it like that.

I know the situation because he was generous enough with his explanation. He was very specific and goes to charge at a Council charge point at the weekends. He's blocking the charger because he could charge at home but is choosing to charge locally.

In my book, that is blocking a charge point because he did not NEED to use that public charger, he could have used his own.. You are free to have a different opinion. I invited him to explain if there was any other reason to look at the situation differently, and he declined to offer such a reason.

In my opinion, even if you have to pay for electricity, anyone who charges on a public charge point when they could easily charge at home is blocking that public charge point.

That is my opinion, and I'm entitled to hold it.
In my opinion, that is using a charge point.
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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Discussion Starter · #70 ·
Let's explore this: fuel duty isn't the only tax that pays for roads. Road Fund Licence payments aren't solely used for roads. I bet nobody on this forum knows the exact sources and sums of our country's annual road building and maintenance budget.
The question in this thread's title is only answerable if we assume our roads are currently funded purely from RFL and fuel duty. In that case, I'd support a proportion as emissions tax (as we currently have), existing fuel duty, and another EV tax based on annual mileage. This could be verified annually perhaps at MOT centres. These would no doubt need to be verified/regulated, perhaps government-run to avoid dishonest backstreet testing centres.
I wasn't particularly focussed on hypothecating duty for roads, but I think it would be popular if it was. The spending on roads would increase by an order of magnitude!!

This is just a hole in public finances and somehow that has to be filled. We could increase income tax, but how is that fair on people who don't have cars?
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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Discussion Starter · #71 ·
In my opinion, that is using a charge point.
Blocking a charge point is an intersecting set with using a charge point, yes. One can both use and block a charge point.

What is your point?
 

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Discussion Starter · #72 ·
You are overthinking this. If free charging is offered, people will take up the offer. This is not a moral failing on their part. Inasmuch as it convinces people to swap their ICEs for EVs, it's a positive thing for the local and global environment.

If the chargers are too busy, the choices are to provide more (increase supply), or raise the price (reduce demand).
The user in question had already swapped to a BEV. What incentive was it for him to swap to a BEV? What incentive is it for an ICE driver seeing him always on the same spot every time they arrive in the car park?
 

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Kia e-Niro MY20 64 kWh - Gravity Blue
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No, not because of 'that' and you know you are troublemaking by phrasing it like that.

I know the situation because he was generous enough with his explanation. He was very specific and goes to charge at a Council charge point at the weekends. He's blocking the charger because he could charge at home but is choosing to charge locally.

In my book, that is blocking a charge point because he did not NEED to use that public charger, he could have used his own.. You are free to have a different opinion. I invited him to explain if there was any other reason to look at the situation differently, and he declined to offer such a reason.

In my opinion, even if you have to pay for electricity, anyone who charges on a public charge point when they could easily charge at home is blocking that public charge point.

That is my opinion, and I'm entitled to hold it.
So you've changed your take from 'filling your boots at the tax payers' expense' to 'he's blocking the charger and now someone else can't use it'.

So maybe you've come to realize that your initial attack was uncalled for and now you morph it into an example of non-altruistic behaviour in order to save face. I'm not buying it.

BTW: calling someone out for filing their boots at the tax payers' expense is not troublemaking, and me calling you out for publicly denouncing someone's behaviour is.. how many yard sticks do you have in your closet?
 

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Discussion Starter · #74 ·
So you've changed your take from 'filling your boots at the tax payers' expense' to 'he's blocking the charger and now someone else can't use it'.

So maybe you've come to realize that your initial attack was uncalled for and now you morph it into an example of non-altruistic behaviour in order to save face. I'm not buying it.
You can come to any conclusion you like but 'filling your boots' is a SUBSET of 'blocking a charger'. The former is automatically included in the latter, but the latter is not necessarily meaning the former.

If you want to hear more of my opinion, just keep on and you will hear more. If you have had enough, then why not quit?
 

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I wasn't particularly focussed on hypothecating duty for roads, but I think it would be popular if it was. The spending on roads would increase by an order of magnitude!!

This is just a hole in public finances and somehow that has to be filled. We could increase income tax, but how is that fair on people who don't have cars?
Fair comment Donald. I'd go for what I said regarding the current systems and annual mileage checks to levy a distance travelled EV tax.
 

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Kia e-Niro MY20 64 kWh - Gravity Blue
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You can come to any conclusion you like but 'filling your boots' is a SUBSET of 'blocking a charger'. The former is automatically included in the latter, but the latter is not necessarily meaning the former.

If you want to hear more of my opinion, just keep on and you will hear more. If you have had enough, then why not quit?
I recall that conversation. Nowhere did you mention that he was blocking a charger someone else could be using. You just objected to him using a free charger when he could use his own, and as such your argument was solely based on the financial gains he obtained by doing so.

In this same thread, you refer to that conversation using these words:
Just the other day, 'one of our colleagues' here was happy to announce how he'd go fill his boots at tax payers' expense at the weekends rather than charge his car at home.

If you want 'the poor' to be able to afford new BEVs, then maybe some money needs to be put back in their pockets.
So again, you link his using a public charger to taking money away from the poor rather than giving them the benefit of the public services.

So, again, my question is: please define the net income below which somebody is 'poor' and enlighten us as to how you are aware of the financial situation of the forum member who has been so audacious as to use a free public charger.
 

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Discussion Starter · #77 ·
So, again, my question is: please define the net income below which somebody is 'poor'
Someone who can't afford a BEV (like me!)

and enlighten us as to how you are aware of the financial situation of the forum member who has been so audacious as to use a free public charger.
It is irrelevant. He can charge at home on his own funds, whether he's broke or not. If he can't afford the electricity for his car, he has legs to get to the local town. If he doesn't have legs that can get him there, then he can ask for some disability supporter volunteers.

Plenty of people are too poor for cars, so if my good regard is going to be sent to anyone it'll be them first rather than someone who can't afford the energy to power their own car.
 

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Kia e-Niro MY20 64 kWh - Gravity Blue
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Someone who can't afford a BEV (like me!)


It is irrelevant. He can charge at home on his own funds, whether he's broke or not. If he can't afford the electricity for his car, he has legs to get to the local town. If he doesn't have legs that can get him there, then he can ask for some disability supporter volunteers.

Plenty of people are too poor for cars, so if my good regard is going to be sent to anyone it'll be them first rather than someone who can't afford the energy to power their own car.
So public chargers are in place for the poor that cannot afford to buy a BEV. Gotcha!

(I assume you see the contradiction in your own reasoning here or do I need to spell it out for you?)
 

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Could that be another reason for government wanting home evse’s to be “smart”, it would let them differentiate between electricity for ev use and home use so they could tax ev electricity without taxing home use?
Hmm... I think smart EVSE's give them much needed data but would be surprised if used for taxation purposes. Do meters not need to be calibrated and tamperproof etc?
 

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The user in question had already swapped to a BEV. What incentive was it for him to swap to a BEV?
I can't answer for anyone else, but I can say that free charging locally and elsewhere was an incentive for me to change from ICE to BEV. Not the only factor but it helped get me over the line. Incentives typically work by people thinking they will make use of them, then actually doing so later on. It would be a bit difficult for anyone to use a charge point before they had an EV, wouldn't it? There is a certain ordering here that is unavoidable.

What incentive is it for an ICE driver seeing him always on the same spot every time they arrive in the car park?
Sometimes when I'm charging, a curious ICE driver comes up and starts chatting, asking some questions about EVs, perhaps being surprised to see that they could get free charging, that the range was rather more than they expected, or that the car cost less than they thought. Maybe they then think it's something that might work for them?

This is how EVs spread, I think: the more people have them; the more knowledge gets passed on; the more friends and family get lifts in them. They see the advantages. Then some of them buy one for themselves, and the cycle continues.

Kind regards
- Garry
 
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