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But you have won, forget the actual question raised in post 1, apparently all that matters is the fact that I personally have some problems with current EVs,
I think you've discovered that just as there is a Tesla forum where you will get pilloried for daring to question the awesome perfection of those vehicles, this is an EV forum where you will get pilloried ... etc.

At least part of the problem is that owners of current cars don't want to admit they have something that is not wonderful and will argue frantically to avoid doing so. Not just EVs, or even cars, either. Illogical, yes. But most people aren't logical.
 

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VW ID.3 Worst Edition & Tesla M3 LR
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At least part of the problem is that owners of current cars don't want to admit they have something that is not wonderful and will argue frantically to avoid doing so.
Yes, show me a perfect EV and I will show you somebody who is deluded!

I’d be disappointed if things weren’t progressing with regard to EVs, but they are, as is the charging infrastructure.

It’s a conveyor belt/hamster wheel of incremental improvements, you jump on or off depending on your vehicle replacement schedule.

There’s always something better coming along, and that’s good because it means there’s space created for yesterday’s cutting edge tech that was still very good, just at hopefully a lower price.
 

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I think you've discovered that just as there is a Tesla forum where you will get pilloried for daring to question the awesome perfection of those vehicles, this is an EV forum where you will get pilloried ... etc.

At least part of the problem is that owners of current cars don't want to admit they have something that is not wonderful and will argue frantically to avoid doing so. Not just EVs, or even cars, either. Illogical, yes. But most people aren't logical.
This is 100% true. I am a HUGE fan of EV's (both my commuter car and our family cars are full-electric) and though I recognize from a logical standpoint there are some cases where a full EV might not be the best choice for someone, I just can't seem to admit that out loud... :ROFLMAO: I am absolutely "that guy" who won't shut up about how great EVs are around my office...
 

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This is 100% true. I am a HUGE fan of EV's (both my commuter car and our family cars are full-electric) and though I recognize from a logical standpoint there are some cases where a full EV might not be the best choice for someone, I just can't seem to admit that out loud... :ROFLMAO: I am absolutely "that guy" who won't shut up about how great EVs are around my office...
Yes, I’m a bit like ‘that guy’ too.

Even when I’m critical of EVs, and I’m actually quite critical of the two we own as well, it’s still from the standpoint of being a fan, I’d take almost any EV over an alternative ICE vehicle.

I was thinking the other day about what I’d do if the EV movement suddenly stopped, ie the Government said ‘sorry, our mistake, all aboard the synthetic fuels or hydrogen train’, and the infrastructure to support EVs was run down.

I still think I’d try to carry on! That probably makes me insane or something…
 

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There’s always something better coming along, and that’s good because it means there’s space created for yesterday’s cutting edge tech that was still very good, just at hopefully a lower price.
That's true of all cars, since cars were invented. Something introduced on top end Mercs becomes mainstream within the decade (e.g air con or ABS etc etc). It will happen on EVs in exactly the same way. Top end cars coming out now with 800v architecture charging 10-80% in 15 minutes. By 2030, any car that doesn't do that, at the lowest end of the scale, will be a dead duck.

It's true of all technology. My VIC20 PC was state of the art in 1982.
 

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... and readily affordable by all... Otherwise we go back a century or three, where only the well off can travel in comfort and convenience...
I hear that Boris is dreaming up a new Royal Yacht. Will it be battery powered using latest battery technology.
Will it enable the lucky (or unlucky honeymooners) to travel in silent vibration free luxury? Will there be toilets on board?
 

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In the 8 years since my 13 Reg 24kWh Sunderland built Leaf was built, installed battery sizes have increased, and I expect they will continue to do so in the future, if only incrementally. What is equally significant is the increase in the number of Rapid charging locations, meaning that, on a long journey, because a recharging stop is dictated by the fact that I do not have sufficient remaining range to reach the following recharging stop, I can on average now run the battery down further before having to stop to recharge.

For my Leaf, I can be sure of a cold-weather range of 50 miles on a full battery, and as I can recharge at home this is sufficient for most of my needs. Provided there is a sufficient spread of Rapid chargers, and providing that they are working and available for use, any longer journeys can be done by Rapid charging as and when needed.

When the available range on my Leaf reduces to the point where having to stop and recharge becomes a hassle, I will trade up to a newer version (which will have a bigger battery), and my present car will still have a value as a local commuter car for someone who lives 10 miles from work and can charge at home (or at work).

In the future, there will probably be a market for each model to come with a range of available battery sizes; an expensive large batteried and high range version for the commercial travelers, and a cheaper (but with a smaller battery) version for those that do not need the large range.
 

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I own a 14 plate Leaf with a range of around 70 miles (on a good day) and I am surprised at the complications of recharging when out and about. Let me give you a comparison with a ICE vehicle, but this time a motorbike. Harley-Davidson used to sell (and still do, as far as I know) certain models with "peanut" fuel tanks i.e. very small, so that the awesomeness of the V-twin engine beneath could be seen by all. The range before the low fuel light came on was around 80 miles, and this was not a problem with the riders because refuelling was so easy. Just look for a petrol station (any name on the sign will do) and fill up. The nozzle will always fit into the filler on the tank, no hassle having to find the appropriate RFID card or app. for the particular brand of fuel, no registration, no worrying if the mobile signal is strong enough, and payment by contactless card, chip & pin or even, oh horror most chill and palpitating, even by banknotes and coin of the realm. No hunting for a pump lurking in the murkiest recesses of the petrol station either. If charging was this carefree, I'd be delighted to travel long distances in my Leaf.
 

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Here’s the thing, (IMHO) all EV’s are imperfect as are all ICE’s and PHEV’s

Each suit some people’s needs better than others, I don’t really subscribe to “I can’t have an EV because I drive 800 miles once a year”

or

“I can’t have an EV because I tow a caravan”

These are occasional uses the former can be easily solved by hiring for the one off use and the savings of running an EV will more than cover this if you were so minded.

You can also pitch a caravan at a nice site and then drive to it in your EV if you so choose, or hire or borrow a tow vehicle or even share one with another EV driver?! (Now there’s a thought!)

Anyway I guess these are all very first world problems.

Some people value driving emission free for the rest of the time and are prepared to accept the pros and cons of an EV.

Nor do EV’s have to be cost prohibitive, there are plenty of cheap leafs and Zoe’s out there that have range enough for your average drivers daily miles.

if you do very small milage and don’t mind being cold in the winter you can do mainly electric miles in a PHEV or start the ICE in one of you want to be warm and don’t want to turn all of your electrons into heat.

Its all horses for courses and there are many shades of grey.

I personally have a diesel van, a Leaf and a Zoe.
The van because occasionally I need to move a large amount of stuff for my business, I use this very rarely nowadays mainly because I hate burning fossil fuels so I avoid it like the plague and the leaf with folded seats is actually pretty big!

If it will fit in the leaf then it does, 95% of my daily driving gets done in the leaf (about 70 - 100 miles per day) there isn’t a PHEV on the market that would allow me to do even 50% of this only on electric I would burn lots of Dino juice pay road tax fuel duty and be about £3k a year worse off in one and arrive at the school gates having run out of electric burning fuel and poisoning small children, this is not for me! 😉

The Zoe is my wife’s car who sometimes does the school run goes shopping, visits friends and family and commutes to a local workplace she doesn’t even use 1/3 of its range daily, it ticks all of her boxes.

If battery technology doesn’t improve (which it will nothing ever stands still) what we currently have in the EV world will suit a sizeable proportion of your average joes needs for most of the time.

Charging infer structure will improve in the fullness of time and it really does need to.

The biggest issue I generally encounter with using EV’s is with the people driving them not the cars.

Here is a good example:

This bank holiday weekend we went out on a day trip to a place 50 miles away, we took the Zoe for a bit of fun (life’s boring if you have the range to drive home without charging) 😉

We arrived at our destination where there were 4 charge points, there was a 40kW leaf (which had already finished charging) an Evoque p300e (the driver of which appeared to have never used a public charger before in his life) an X5 sporting a blue badge who had ICE’d the end charger and then me.

I was relieved to nab the last charge point although I had arrived with the range to spare and go elsewhere if needs be.


We plugged the Zoe in and we went on our way, I returned an hour later when Zoe was full to move it from the charge point in case someone else needed to charge.

The other 3 cars were unchanged.

I moved Zoe to free the charger and went back to my family.

3 hours later we returned to go home there was a Tesla using the charge point I had used the X5 was still blocking the point the leaf which had finished charging 4 hours ago (to my knowledge) was still sat there and the Evoque having spent 2 hours filling up with 20 miles of range was still blocking its spot.

Why was I the only person considerate enough to move my car?

And had I arrived and asked the PHEV Evoque to let me use the charger because I didn’t have the range to get home would he have let me charge, or would I have got a mouthful of abuse?

Kinda makes you wonder 🤔
 

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It's examples like this that is inevitably going to result in incidents of 'charger rage' EV drivers certainly need to be educated in charger etiquette, perhaps manufacturers could include a leaflet with all new EV's that would be a start.
 

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It's examples like this that is inevitably going to result in incidents of 'charger rage' EV drivers certainly need to be educated in charger etiquette, perhaps manufacturers could include a leaflet with all new EV's that would be a start.
It sounds like @Drewby80 was describing a car park, where people park their cars.

This is fair game to leave one's car while it is charging, and then for as long as it takes to get back to the car. Of course it is, it is called a 'car park', not a 'car-come-and-move-it-later'.
 

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It sounds like @Drewby80 was describing a car park, where people park their cars.

This is fair game to leave one's car while it is charging, and then for as long as it takes to get back to the car. Of course it is, it is called a 'car park', not a 'car-come-and-move-it-later'.
Your totally right, I was actually highlighting the total inadequacy of our current charging situation and the current need to be considerate of others because it is such a scarce commodity.

This was a car park of over 1000 spaces and there were 4 charging bays.

This is currently the biggest issue with EV’s not the battery technology, if we sort out the charging solutions the range becomes largely academic.
 

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The range is never academic - each individual will have a “tipping point” for me it’s 200m. If my car can do 200m in the depths of winter, then it will do 99.99999% of my journeys easily - I’m then more than happy to use a rapid for that very rare trip. But if I had a range of 150m in deep winter, I’d have to use a rapid charger frequently, which is expensive, inconvenient and makes owning an EV less attractive. If I had a range of 100m I would go back to ICE.

Everyone’s “tipping point” will be different. Hopefully chargers will get better, but with a decent range it’s less of an issue anyhow.
 

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Your totally right, I was actually highlighting the total inadequacy of our current charging situation and the current need to be considerate of others because it is such a scarce commodity.

This was a car park of over 1000 spaces and there were 4 charging bays.

This is currently the biggest issue with EV’s not the battery technology, if we sort out the charging solutions the range becomes largely academic.
Agreed. This is an oft-cited position I make, try not to blame the users but the providers.

But also, just simply don't expect or rely on destination chargers. They are a waste of time for reasons I have explained before (unless, as you say, it is a 1000 slot car park with chargers on every one).
 

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Agreed. This is an oft-cited position I make, try not to blame the users but the providers.

But also, just simply don't expect or rely on destination chargers. They are a waste of time for reasons I have explained before (unless, as you say, it is a 1000 slot car park with chargers on every one).
Probably destination chargers on about 50% of a carpark would be fine.
Let's not be greedy!

Half the users won't need to charge or won't be bothered.
 

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Probably destination chargers on about 50% of a carpark would be fine.
Let's not be greedy!

Half the users won't need to charge or won't be bothered.
More so than that, I have proposed siting chargers in the middle of each of 4 or 6 bays (the latter, in the middle of the middle 'rank' of the 6), or in the middle space if it is 3 at the edge of the car park.

In this way, one charge point can serve 6 spaces. In a 600 space car park, 120 or so charge points could cover the whole.

I used to drive around with a 10m lead (sold to a member here). I did not use it much in the wild as I rarely used public 'slow' charging but it was there if I needed it and it allowed me a couple of times to string along past 4 bays or so to reach a blocked charger.

But this is rather off topic as the future of batteries IMHO should be smaller and more lightweight if anything, providing; a) they are 100kW capable, and b) a lot more 100kW chargers.

Yesterday I 'plugged' in the universal fits-all-models diesel nozzle, recharged my van, and added 600 mile range in 65 seconds. The problem is to compete with that.

There are actually battery technologies that can already get close, the question is whether they can be offered into mass market?
 

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More so than that, I have proposed siting chargers in the middle of each of 4 or 6 bays (the latter, in the middle of the middle 'rank' of the 6), or in the middle space if it is 3 at the edge of the car park.

In this way, one charge point can serve 6 spaces. In a 600 space car park, 120 or so charge points could cover the whole.

I used to drive around with a 10m lead (sold to a member here). I did not use it much in the wild as I rarely used public 'slow' charging but it was there if I needed it and it allowed me a couple of times to string along past 4 bays or so to reach a blocked charger.

But this is rather off topic as the future of batteries IMHO should be smaller and more lightweight if anything, providing; a) they are 100kW capable, and b) a lot more 100kW chargers.

Yesterday I 'plugged' in the universal fits-all-models diesel nozzle, recharged my van, and added 600 mile range in 65 seconds. The problem is to compete with that.

There are actually battery technologies that can already get close, the question is whether they can be offered into mass market?
Don't forget the time you spent spilling diesel on your shoes then walking into the kiosk and queuing to pay behind the lady who has just done her weekly shop in the little supermarket bit. It all adds up to the great refuelling experience.

I do agree with your destination charger layout ideas. Do you think that anyone who actually plans this sort of thing reads our forum? Can we canvas them somehow?
 

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Probably destination chargers on about 50% of a carpark would be fine.
It's iffy. People tend to just park somewhat randomly. If the place is fairly full they will grab whatever odd vacant and if not they tend to park clumped near the pedestrian exits, and will grab the 'best' spaces in that area.
So if 50% of visitors want to charge and 50% not then half of the charge fitted bays will be occupied by non-charging cars. So you only have a 25% chance of scoring a plug.
(This is a bit of a gut-feel analysis ... I'll let a statistician do it properly.)
 
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