Speak EV - Electric Car Forums banner

41 - 58 of 58 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
345 Posts
Yeah, £10/kilo is on par with what I've seen referenced elsewhere. It's frustratingly difficult to find any solid answers about many aspects of HFCVs, though, fuel price being a good example of something you'd think would be widely available.

Another is repressurising speed of the fuelling system after someone else has used it. It's discussed on here fairly regularly but I can't find a single good reference. Then again, given the incredible unlikelihood of several fuel cell vehicles refuelling consecutively right now, that's maybe not so surprising..
 

·
Militant EV driver!
Joined
·
4,926 Posts
Yeah, £10/kilo is on par with what I've seen referenced elsewhere. It's frustratingly difficult to find any solid answers about many aspects of HFCVs, though, fuel price being a good example of something you'd think would be widely available.

Another is repressurising speed of the fuelling system after someone else has used it. It's discussed on here fairly regularly but I can't find a single good reference. Then again, given the incredible unlikelihood of several fuel cell vehicles refuelling consecutively right now, that's maybe not so surprising..
£10/kg is the wholesale cost that ITM has sold hydrogen to many entities recently. However if you go back to their older PR they should have been cheaper by now. I have some links to that in the presentation I made earlier this year.

There was also this picture from the US.

IMG_3845.jpg




I once recall seeing a story that someone had to wait 25 minutes for a pump to repressurise, but that was a few years ago and I never managed to find it again. I would love to find the reference to that again.

EDIT: I did however find this: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/pump-it-up-we-refuel-a-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicle-the-half-hour-fill-up-page-2

EDIT 2: This is also useful Filling the Tank with Hydrogen | ITS.Berkeley.edu
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,854 Posts
Particularly telling is just how far you can read through that article thinking it's a relatively contemporary piece before feeling compelled to scroll back and check the date.

FCV concept shown at CES? I don't remember one this year, but there could have been.
Looking backwards and reviewing manufacturers' promises that haven't come to pass?
Honda releasing a limited quantity of "production vehicles" to end-users in California? Sounds just like Toyota.
Debate about how to build hydrogen filling stations and how to make the H2 for them?
President Bush ??!!! How old is this article?

Nearly 10 years. Oh.

The only thing that's really changed is that nowadays the pro-H2 side would use the urban air quality argument to counter the point about H2 from steam reforming having more CO2 emissions than petrol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
118 Posts
There are, as far as I'm aware, just four hydrogen filling points in the UK with public access. The rest are on private property I think. And I don't imagine you just turn up and begin filling either. There are huge storage/delivery pressures involved ( I've seen 10,000 p.s.i. mentioned) so perhaps anyone using the equipment may need to be H & S certified?

And switching to hydrogen wouldn't necessarily keep eco warriors happy either. I believe harvesting hydrogen uses vast amounts of electricity. The end user cost would, given the storage and distribution infrastructure required, be rather higher than petrol and diesel......

Rather than use those vast amounts of electricty to harvest hydrogen, why not just charge the batteries in an electric car in the first instance? After all, a hydrogen powered car is simply an electric car underneath.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,339 Posts
There are huge storage/delivery pressures involved ( I've seen 10,000 p.s.i. mentioned) so perhaps anyone using the equipment may need to be H & S certified?
I’m pretty sure that’s not the case.

The refuelling system is all computer controlled with interlocks and sensors, so it’s pretty safe by design.

There are more refuelling stations being built on forecourts, however progress is a bit slow. The real issue is you can’t really buy an FCEV currently.

Latest indications are that even Toyota don’t think they’re ready for mass adoption until 2040.
 

·
I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
Joined
·
23,354 Posts
I see a pay wall, probably due to age (of the article, not mine!!... ;) ). Can anyone pin up the numbers it says?

Interesting another 2 years has passed in the thread, and yet this is now old-news repeat of old-news. "Hydrogen are the cars of the future" is now a chapter in history books, it seems, whereas electric cars are contemporary and their future is opening up quicker than people can actually write about it in a 'historical sense'!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
I see a pay wall, probably due to age (of the article, not mine!!... ;) ). Can anyone pin up the numbers it says?
You can read 5 articles behind the economist paywall by just registering. Here's the numbers:
the Oak Ridge study assumes it will be possible to make fuel-cell vehicle systems in quantity at a cost of $45 per kilowatt of output by 2010, and $30 per kilowatt by 2015.

This is ambitious. Although fuel-cell costs have dropped by 65% since 2002, according to the CaFCP, today's fuel cells cost around $107 per kilowatt.
Today it's still over $100 per kw and DoE targets $30 per kw for 2025
Yet for advocates of fuel-cell cars, hope springs eternal. The CaFCP sees tens of thousands of fuel-cell vehicles on the road by 2017; Shell predicts that mass roll-out of fuel-cell vehicles is “absolutely achievable” by 2020
2017 there were ~2000 FCEVs on roads. Shell estimates 2 million FCEVs sales per year at 2030.

Absolutely hilarious. A 2008 article starts by pointing out how FCEVs are still where they were in 1998. And in 2019 we are still in the same position.

And a stark reminder where we'd be with BEVs, had not Elon made EVs sexy (thus not having to meet cost parity with ICE cars) and solving the chicken/egg problem of cars/chargers by rolling them out both.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,339 Posts
I think that’s the real problem. It’s basically impossible to make a halo performance FCEV to make them attractive.

The ship has sailed and it’s called HMS BEV.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
345 Posts
It's interesting that the FCVs that have been available somewhere on a non-lease basis, the Mirai, Nexo, Clarity and ix35, all have very similar stats. ~1850kg, EPA range in the mid-to-low 300s, horsepower in the mid-to-low 100s, price £50-60k, all a little bit bigger than a Prius. I wonder if there are technical limitations that would compromise something more sexy and halo-effect, like a sports car.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,339 Posts
I wonder if there are technical limitations that would compromise something more sexy and halo-effect, like a sports car.
Yes, you'd need a larger fuel cell to deal with peak power and a larger battery as the fuel cell takes time to ramp up.

This would probably mean you'd need quite a large battery in order to get the performance, kind of making the FC a bit irrelevant, and the car much heavier.

It's no co-incidence they've based the Mirai on the Prius platform, battery and all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,167 Posts
There are 2 within 30 miles of me - but I've only ever seen the one at the Uni being used. I drive past them both a lot
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,218 Posts
Have passed the Gatwick airport one a bit too many times recently (oh my carbon footprint!) and each time is has been coned off. I popped into Cobham and someone in an ITM van was fixing that one. Something tells me they are quite unreliable. With Honda Swindon going, that M4 site will also disappear.
 
41 - 58 of 58 Posts
Top