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Discussion Starter #1
Who does really think that it is a coincidence that all recent Ev don't go further than 200km max??
For example the new BMW i3: it has a +- 24 Kwh battery and goes around 150km. Why don't they put
a 36 Kwh battery in it? There is enough space to put a shitty fuel engine in it , that increases the weight by more than 150 kg but they don't come to the idea of using that space for batteries! And for the 4000 Euros, they ask for the REX, they could easly put 10 more Kwh in it!
And why is it such a big secret to reveal the price of the batteries? Because they are much cheaper than they wanna make us believe! They know very good that the 250 km range barrier would revolutionise the market. They wouldn't make any money on repairs , oil changes and the cars would last much longer.If Tesla wouldn't have shown us what is possible, they would tell us till the end of days:" Ev's can't go any further than 50 miles! "
The only reason why Ev are so expensive is , that they wanna sell their old shit and make big money on oil!!
I think that it wouldn't be a problem building an Ev that goes more than 350 Km for less than 25000 Euros!
What do you think?
 

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25k€ is probably a little too low for now, but the 30-35k€ is feasible, though not for a fantastic quality car (think Mondeo, not C Class).

Personally I think that's where they should head for now, something like a Mondeo ST-E. Give it a 50kwh battery, 300hp and proper rapid charging. People would go for it and it makes electric drive aspirational, helps you sell a lot more 40kwh 150hp Focus's.
 

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It's no coincidence. Neither is it a conspiracy. The market for EVs is tiny compared with regular models, and initial models will address the largest part of that limited market. Once people realise that 20 miles is a typical daily mileage for the large majority of owners, then adding battery & cost would not be welcome. Optional pack sizes will come as the volume of the market grows. If the current offerings don't suit you just now, you will have to wait or build your own.
 

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When you take into account the design lead time on a new car, what's newly available was specified about four or five years ago when there was no real evidence of consumer requirements or preferences in EVs. The iMiev and Leaf specifications applied the technology of eight years ago to assumptions of what might sell. Subsequent designs (i3, e-Up, e-Golf) were specified to compete with the features and price of the first generation.

Tesla's Model S is a left-field entrant and we can be sure that the major manufacturers have been taken completely by surprise by its sales volume and profitability. The Tesla Model E is anticipated as a mass-market car and clearly establishes the benchmark for specification and price point for all manufacturers. Current UK Government predictions forecast hybrid and BEV sales will be 60% of new car and small van sales by 2030 and assumes that the price of fossil fuels will be so high that demand will switch to ultra low emissions vehicles.
 
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Once there's a decent electric Fiesta and Corsa on the road, alongside the Mondeo and 3 series I would expect BEV to quickly go over 60%.
 
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It's no coincidence. Neither is it a conspiracy. The market for EVs is tiny compared with regular models, and initial models will address the largest part of that limited market. Once people realise that 20 miles is a typical daily mileage for the large majority of owners, then adding battery & cost would not be welcome. Optional pack sizes will come as the volume of the market grows. If the current offerings don't suit you just now, you will have to wait or build your own.
Fair enough if there's a cheap and ubiquitous rapid charging network, but apparently that's tough to do (!)

Batteries really aren't that expensive to OEMs. A Leaf should cost the same as a conventional car, since £5k is paid direct by the government and the battery certainly costs less than that (backed up by the difference between flex and outrigh purchase). Even if you want to call it a full £5k for 24kwh I still think adding 2.5k for 36kwh (~100 miles motorway range) or 5k for 48kwh (~130 miles motorway range) that's still a good value proposition, especially as it allows better performance, better regen and better charging amperage!
 

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When you take into account the design lead time on a new car, what's newly available was specified about four or five years ago when there was no real evidence of consumer requirements or preferences in EVs. The iMiev and Leaf specifications applied the technology of eight years ago to assumptions of what might sell. Subsequent designs (i3, e-Up, e-Golf) were specified to compete with the features and price of the first generation.

Tesla's Model S is a left-field entrant and we can be sure that the major manufacturers have been taken completely by surprise by its sales volume and profitability. The Tesla Model E is anticipated as a mass-market car and clearly establishes the benchmark for specification and price point for all manufacturers. Current UK Government predictions forecast hybrid and BEV sales will be 60% of new car and small van sales by 2030 and assumes that the price of fossil fuels will be so high that demand will switch to ultra low emissions vehicles.
If they all join here we're going to need some moderators.


And a holiday.
 

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When I first saw the Nissan Leaf in the showroom at Colchester, the same car I now drive, I was struck by just how ordinary it was and not that attractive. I have learnt to love its looks alone with its performance. It is the combination of ordinariness and extraordinariness that makes the car magic for me.
My car had its first MOT recently and I've clocked over 40,000 miles but still I rarely see another on the roads in Essex.
In the past three years Nissan must have learnt a great deal and now I feel they need to take the next big step that will shake up the whole car market.
GET THE LIST PRICE RIGHT.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
It's no coincidence. Neither is it a conspiracy. The market for EVs is tiny compared with regular models, and initial models will address the largest part of that limited market. Once people realise that 20 miles is a typical daily mileage for the large majority of owners, then adding battery & cost would not be welcome. Optional pack sizes will come as the volume of the market grows. If the current offerings don't suit you just now, you will have to wait or build your own.
Now please don't be naive! 20 miles isn't a typical driving range!! That considers your annual milage divide by 365 days!! With let's say 30 days per year where you don't use your car at all. Look I bought a new Leaf 2 weeks ago but that doesn't make me stop thinking and finding everything perfect!!! Look at VW or Ford for example: It is just pathetic what they are building now. Taking an old Golf or Focus and transform it to an EV!! Every 5 man team in a garage could do that and you think that this is the best they can do!!!! Sorry can't take you serious anymore!!
 

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You seem a very angry man @Paul G. ;) :)

Most regular journeys (I know in the UK) are VERY short. Not the same for everyone, but true for most, a short range BEV can meet something like 90% of UK motoring needs (based on journey lengths).

Doesn't mean we don't want better or for them to improve, but we've all bought in at a time when we felt we could "make it work" based on the information and technology available to us. I believe we should push for better, but enjoy what we have at the same time.
 

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I am not angry and I am not sure @Paul G. is but I am deeply disappointed that more people haven't learnt the benefits of ev.
If you could accept the premise that "range anxiety" is a red herring and that the true issue is "price anxiety" (after all should an E-up! really cost 3 times the base model up! given they way they were designed?) then it clarifies the whole argument.
Admin Paul's point is the telling point. 90% could love ev driving.
 

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If a basic, decent, EV cost about the same as a similar ICE model, pretty much every 2-car family could probably have one ICE and one EV. Perhaps half of one-car households could drive EVs. With 150+ mile EVs, the majority of cars could be electric.

Of course the biggest problems are related to charging - if you only have off-street parking you need reliable charging somewhere, either for your on-street parking, at work, or perhaps well placed rapids. For longer-range EVs you need well placed rapids (capable of getting you back up to 80% or so in no more than an hour). They all need to be reliable, easy to locate and as simple to use as possible (including not needing a boot full of RFID cards to drive cross-country!)
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Look the only thing I want they to say is that they build these cars on purpose with these small ranges.There is absolutely no reason why to stay below 24Kwh except for giving the people a reason not to buy them. I love EV's but it just makes me sick how they treat their customers. People buy I3's and load them with 10000£ of extras but when it comes to batteries they say : Sorry, but people won't spend that much money on a car ! I just wanna say that we shouldn't take it for granted that the range is so limited. And don't tell me nobody in this forum wouldn't like to have 100 miles more range! Anyway I think most people here have a second car.For car manufacturers Ev's are just alibi cars. They build them because they have to, but in reality they don't want us to buy them! Their effort in improving them is just pathetic and that makes me angry . If they would just invest 3% of their developping costs on Ev's, these cars would be great and would sell in huge numbers. Maybe the range isn't a drawback for you but it is for 98% of the population and that is a fact. People don't want to have a second car to pay for. As long as the range won't exceed at least 160 miles these cars won't sell! ( I mean really sell). They built cars in the seventies that already had todays range !! Am I really the only one seeing this....?
 

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Look the only thing I want they to say is that they build these cars on purpose with these small ranges.There is absolutely no reason why to stay below 24Kwh except for giving the people a reason not to buy them. I love EV's but it just makes me sick how they treat their customers. People buy I3's and load them with 10000£ of extras but when it comes to batteries they say : Sorry, but people won't spend that much money on a car ! I just wanna say that we shouldn't take it for granted that the range is so limited. And don't tell me nobody in this forum wouldn't like to have 100 miles more range! Anyway I think most people here have a second car.For car manufacturers Ev's are just alibi cars. They build them because they have to, but in reality they don't want us to buy them! Their effort in improving them is just pathetic and that makes me angry . If they would just invest 3% of their developping costs on Ev's, these cars would be great and would sell in huge numbers. Maybe the range isn't a drawback for you but it is for 98% of the population and that is a fact. People don't want to have a second car to pay for. As long as the range won't exceed at least 160 miles these cars won't sell! ( I mean really sell). They built cars in the seventies that already had todays range !! Am I really the only one seeing this....?
I agree with almost all of that. The big difference of opinion seems to be that I believe most couples and families want or need two cars. In this case it is madness that one isn't an EV.

Tesla seem to be making waves and this is probably why Nissan are expecting to do higher range Leafs
 

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I agree with almost all of that. The big difference of opinion seems to be that I believe most couples and families want or need two cars. In this case it is madness that one isn't an EV.

Tesla seem to be making waves and this is probably why Nissan are expecting to do higher range Leafs
Yes it's a conversation I'm having a lot at work right now, plenty of people complaining about spending £150+ a month on diesel, and whatever on a car payment. Even when I tell them my car payment ins £180 a month (second hand) and the electricity is free at work, it doesn't seem to sink in :(
 

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Yes it's a conversation I'm having a lot at work right now, plenty of people complaining about spending £150+ a month on diesel, and whatever on a car payment. Even when I tell them my car payment ins £180 a month (second hand) and the electricity is free at work, it doesn't seem to sink in :(

"But what if..." Is quite possibly the opening gambit of almost every EV-based question I get. It's understandable, it really does completely challenge the current sensibilities and beliefs around motoring, and it's easily undermined when the likes of Lexus show people their adverts and Top Gear (TV show) mock EVs so hard.

The times, they are a-changing.
 
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