Speak EV - Electric Car Forums banner

1 - 20 of 57 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I have been trying to look into this a little. It clearly is an expensive option to add however it seems that the heat pump in the ID.3 is the first of a new generation running a much higher pressure and using r744 refrigerant. The main advantages seem to be it works better/at lower temperatures. I think Mercedes are the only other manufacturer using this so far.

I can't find much from VW UK but here is a chart from VW France.

137448


and a video about the heating and cooling. Seem like this could be a really useful upgrade if you live in the north and even more so when the smaller battery pack comes out

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,830 Posts
So based on the graph you get around 20% greater range with the heat pump than without at temperatures below 20C, based on some unknown assumptions. I wonder how much more battery you can buy for that cost which would add to your range all year around.
 

·
Registered
Volkswagen e-Golf 2018
Joined
·
2,137 Posts
I have been trying to look into this a little. It clearly is an expensive option to add however it seems that the heat pump in the ID.3 is the first of a new generation running a much higher pressure and using r744 refrigerant. The main advantages seem to be it works better/at lower temperatures. I think Mercedes are the only other manufacturer using this so far.

I can't find much from VW UK but here is a chart from VW France.

View attachment 137448

and a video about the heating and cooling. Seem like this could be a really useful upgrade if you live in the north and even more so when the smaller battery pack comes out

If true, that’s massively different from other statistics about the heat pump I’ve seen for other cars. As you say, 20% more battery would cost more than £1250.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
825 Posts
I'd like to see the equivalent graph for the eGolf heat pump to be able to compare it. And what assumptions are made for that graph.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,270 Posts
Looks to be about a 10% range benefit at 10c, which is probably more typical of our winter temps across the UK, so about 26 miles at WLTP or 20 at real world consumption?

As ever with heat pumps, might be worth it if you’re always pushing the range, but unlike regular heat pumps there seems to be more benefit at sub zero temps?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
750 Posts
Thanks for posting that very useful info and leave people to make their own assessment.

A more useful item could be a battery warmer. Everybody talks about battery cooling but batt warming to increase range and charging could be equally advantageous i feel. Does anybody have data on this? Tesla do this both on cars and powerwalls ?

I wonder if in the future there will be an automatic control of batt cooling ie non in winter say.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
66 Posts
I had discounted the heat pump an option on my MAX (on order) as I assumed it was similar to the HP I had on my e-golf however the ID3 with r744 refrigerant looks to be far more beneficial - now `i am having second thoughts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Also this German version (I assume) of something similar. If you do long journeys and use a fair bit of public fast charging does it pay for itself?

137490
 

·
Registered
Volkswagen e-Golf 2018
Joined
·
2,137 Posts
Also this German version (I assume) of something similar. If you do long journeys and use a fair bit of public fast charging does it pay for itself?
How much electricity would you have to save to reach £1250? At least 3000kWh.

That graph looks more realistic than the other one. Biggest savings at -10C. I'm not sure it's worth it in the UK.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,270 Posts
How much electricity would you have to save to reach £1250? At least 3000kWh.

That graph looks more realistic than the other one. Biggest savings at -10C. I'm not sure it's worth it in the UK.
Yes, looks like for the UK ambient temps it’ll increase range by a few percent or save a bit of electricity/recharge costs, but £1250 is a lot of electricity as you say.

For Scandinavia or Alpine regions looks like a much more sensible option, if those gains at sub zero temps are real.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
169 Posts
R744 is CO2. VW are probably using that heat pump system for green credentials. Sadly, they're much more expensive to make than lower pressure refrigerant ones like my car's R134a system. Provided the ID3 system's reliable, I think it's a great eco-step forward.
If anyone's interested, read up on Global Warming Potential and Ozone Layer Depletion caused by 'traditional' refrigerants.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
For Scandinavia or Alpine regions looks like a much more sensible option, if those gains at sub zero temps are real.
Or Scotland ;-)
Is it about 5 years payback if you do one full public recharge a week? If it increases range by 20% or 10 winters if it’s not working in summer.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,270 Posts
Or Scotland ;-)
Is it about 5 years payback if you do one full public recharge a week? If it increases range by 20% or 10 winters if it’s not working in summer.
Scotland is a big place, average winter temps in the Highlands will be different to that in the Borders!

Payback for people will obviously vary on an individual basis.

For myself, I don’t expect to have to use public rapid charging very much at all now, unless I’m on a very long trip, so payback for me would be in the form of saving some home charging which at the pence per kWh I pay would be a long time.

If you’re pushing the range constantly, then yes, you might benefit, but then perhaps the money would be best put towards the 77 kWh version or a different car?
 

·
Registered
Kia e-Niro 4 MY20
Joined
·
298 Posts
R744 is CO2. VW are probably using that heat pump system for green credentials. Sadly, they're much more expensive to make than lower pressure refrigerant ones like my car's R134a system. Provided the ID3 system's reliable, I think it's a great eco-step forward.
If anyone's interested, read up on Global Warming Potential and Ozone Layer Depletion caused by 'traditional' refrigerants.
This was one of the key credentials when the car was first announced I recall. Some of the synthetic gases we use have some truly horrific environmental consequences. The sooner many of these are banned, the better. Given the refrigerant in cars always leaks out, using CO2 is definitely a good move. If only the likes of Ørsted weren't using SF6 in the Hornsea windfarm sites.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Perhaps a better way of thinking of it is not that it pays for itself but that it doesn't cost as much as it first appears for some people.
If for your use case based on - where you live - the reduction in charge stops/consumption and a smaller change in range between summer to winter added to a feeling of being free to have the heater cranked up. If all that adds up for you then it may not be as daft an option as perhaps some of us had assumed it was when we just saw the price in the price list.
If you live in the south of France and mostly use the car to get to the Carrefour 25km away then not so much.
I notice A Better Route Planner list ID.3's with and without separately - they currently show the same consumption level but perhaps they are expecting to tweak the figures when more data becomes available. Otherwise why list them like that?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,668 Posts
The heat pump gives the most benefits for town driving or if sitting in the car for a long time while not driving. Hence I think if it as an option for taxi drivers not most people.

For long distance driving the range will not be effected much as high speed driving uses so much power per hour compared to heating.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Just checked out of interest and found 17 cars with heat pump listed on Autotrader including a black Life with heat pump and 19 inch Alloys for £29540 so you can still benefit from the extra £2500 deposit contribution from VWFS without having to wait for a factory order that would arrive after the deal has finished. Just saying...
If you are thinking of running it as a taxi,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
OK. Given that range and recharging are the most important factors in buying an electric car (we are told) if the addition of a heat pump makes a significant difference, wouldn’t the manufacturers have jumped on it and included it as standard to make their car better than the rest? The fact that they haven’t suggests to me that the real world benefit is pretty small.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
66 Posts
Perhaps a better way of thinking of it is not that it pays for itself but that it doesn't cost as much as it first appears for some people.
If for your use case based on - where you live - the reduction in charge stops/consumption and a smaller change in range between summer to winter added to a feeling of being free to have the heater cranked up. If all that adds up for you then it may not be as daft an option as perhaps some of us had assumed it was when we just saw the price in the price list.
If you live in the south of France and mostly use the car to get to the Carrefour 25km away then not so much.
I notice A Better Route Planner list ID.3's with and without separately - they currently show the same consumption level but perhaps they are expecting to tweak the figures when more data becomes available. Otherwise why list them like that?
That’s partly my thinking. It’s not about whether it pays for itself - it’s about convenience and comfort.

If it a heat pump means the range doesn’t reduce as much on a longer journey in Winter and/or allows me to have the heating on as much as I want without a huge impact, then it’s worth it to me. It might save me a charging stop / allow me to get further without needing to, or reduce the time at a charging stop. It’s an extension of why the Tour most appeals to me, because I don’t have an ICE to fall back on.

I’ll have the car for a minimum of 4 years, a heat pump will probably keep some of the value by the end of that time. Some of the deals around now more than cover the cost of a heat pump, so that helps as well.
 
1 - 20 of 57 Posts
Top