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OK. Given that range and recharging are the most important factors in buying an electric car (we are told) if the addition of a heat pump makes a significant difference, wouldn’t the manufacturers have jumped on it and included it as standard to make their car better than the rest? The fact that they haven’t suggests to me that the real world benefit is pretty small.
Could be true. Or maybe it’s an expensive option and, in this case, VW are tying to build the car to a price.

Some manufacturers (ie Kia in the e-Niro) are including them.
 

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Could be true. Or maybe it’s an expensive option and, in this case, VW are tying to build the car to a price.

Some manufacturers (ie Kia in the e-Niro) are including them.
The heat pump is an expensive bit of equipment. For some markets where the temperature never goes below 10C it's a waste. It seems common sense to give the buyer the option.
 

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I don’t know of a single manufacturer who trumpets the heat pump as a USP. If they include it as standard, they hardly mention it, if they offer it as an option it’s not pushed in the adverts. Surely they would if it made a significant difference? Whether it’s Norway or California it seems to me to be the same.
 

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My 22kWh Zoe's heat pump worked OK, but the car had the habit of blowing cold air at us. When first started the car delivered heat in a few seconds. A couple of minutes later it would blow cold for a minute or so then the heat would come back. I presume it started with a PTC heater and switched over to the heat pump before it was making heat efficiently. The ID.3 1st with PTC heating delivers constant heat and the cabin soon feels comfortable and stays there.

What's the heat pump experience like in other cars?
 

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Calculation below to try and work out payback on the heat pump. I have assumed it is always saves 20% (which it doesn't) and electricity is always 10p per kWh. If I have it right, even with generous assumptions, there doesn't seem to be an case for the heat pump based on pay back.
137515
 

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Calculation below to try and work out payback on the heat pump. I have assumed it is always saves 20% (which it doesn't) and electricity is always 10p per kWh. If I have it right, even with generous assumptions, there doesn't seem to be an case for the heat pump based on pay back.
View attachment 137515
The point is that for some climates, a heat pump is cheaper than getting a 20% bigger battery.
 

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For me and I guess a lot of EV users the point of the heat pump is not electricity cost savings.
it is all about maximising range especially in cold weather.

I is still difficult to work out if I need it or not and if or is worth an extra £1250
10- 20% increase in range is not insignificant
 

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For me and I guess a lot of EV users the point of the heat pump is not electricity cost savings.
it is all about maximising range especially in cold weather.

I is still difficult to work out if I need it or not and if or is worth an extra £1250
10- 20% increase in range is not insignificant
It is, if it’s true.

A graph isn’t the same as real world, unless the data driving it is from real world testing.

We take WLTP and other things with a healthy dose of scepticism, yet we seem to treat heat pump data as gospel?

I’ve not done many long trips in mine, I did one Thursday evening at 3-5c ambient, I covered 175 mainly motorway miles and had 5% left when I got home, so maybe 10 miles range left. That’s 3.25 miles per kWh.

If this heat pump performance is correct, then consumption would have been around 3.58 miles per kWh, and I would have got back with 32 miles range left, so quite a difference especially if home was another 15/20 miles away.

If the graph translates to the real world that is.

£1250 on the overall cost of an ID.3 isn’t that much, but still an unnecessary expenditure if you don’t need it, and for half of the year will be of limited benefit here in the UK.

There will always be edge cases around EV use, 10 mins on a rapid somewhere on a 3 hour plus journey would also make up the range, and there will of course be circumstances where even with a heat pump you’ll be pushing things.

Good to have a choice though, I hope somebody somewhere will do a real world comparison test to see the difference, although removing all the variables for that will be difficult.
 

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The point is that for some climates, a heat pump is cheaper than getting a 20% bigger battery.
it's likely to be almost always cheaper to charge the battery than pay for a heat pump. Unless you are doing 40/50k miles per annum and annual average temperature is < 5 Celsius. I do see the argument that if you are typically driving to the limit of the battery there may be savings through the convenience of avoiding spending time charging.
 

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Let’s not get deluded on what a heatpump does. It converts low grade heat (0-10C) to high grade (20+C).
It does not generate electricity and hence no extra range, nor heat (well a little bit by itself because it consumes electricity).
This supposed extra range is obtained only by comparison to an equivalent journey done in a non-heatpump car.

Let’s say the journey is 200 miles and the non-heatpump car can just make it and no heating was used (well perhaps seat heating).
The same journey in a heatpump car will be exactly the same, it would just about make it, there is no extra range.

Now if the same journey was made with heating on, the non-heatpump car would not make it, it could be 50 miles short (3KW times 4 hours driving = 48 miles ish)
The heatpump car will would not make it either, however it would be short by 20 miles (1KW x 4hr = 16 miles). This is where the extra range is gained, the difference between 48 miles and 16 miles.
In the example above, the heatpump car would have given you an extra 48-16=32 miles.

So it is really a question of whether you want to travel in comfort (heat blasting), or range mode (very low heating) when the journey is really tight.
If the non-heatpump car lowered their temp to 1KW consumption, it too would "gain back" those 32 miles. These miles are not lost until the end of the journey, not before.

My 2p is that if one can do the journey just by using seat heating alone the heatpump car would actually have less range (because a heatpump would use more electricity than seat heating).
 
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Let’s not get deluded on what a heatpump does. It converts low grade heat (0-10C) to high grade (20+C).
It does not generate electricity and hence no extra range, nor heat (well a little bit by itself because it consumes electricity).
This supposed extra range is obtained only by comparison to an equivalent journey done in a non-heatpump car.

Let’s say the journey is 200 miles and the non-heatpump car can just make it and no heating was used (well perhaps seat heating).
The same journey in a heatpump car will be exactly the same, it would just about make it, there is no extra range.

Now if the same journey was made with heating on, the non-heatpump car would not make it, it could be 50 miles short (3KW times 4 hours driving = 48 miles ish)
The heatpump car will would not make it either, however it would be short by 20 miles (1KW x 4hr = 16 miles). This is where the extra range is gained, the difference between 48 miles and 16 miles.
In the example above, the heatpump car would have given you an extra 48-16=32 miles.

So it is really a question of whether you want to travel in comfort (heat blasting), or range mode (very low heating) when the journey is really tight.
If the non-heatpump car lowered their temp to 1KW consumption, it too would "gain back" those 32 miles. These miles are not lost until the end of the journey, not before.

My 2p is that if one can do the journey just by using seat heating alone the heatpump car would actually have less range (because a heatpump would use more electricity than seat heating).
Yep understand it reduces load on the battery by providing heat into the cabin. Don't get the 2p point, surely by choice the heatpump could be switched off thus using zero power from the battery to effect the transformation ?
 

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Let’s not get deluded on what a heatpump does. It converts low grade heat (0-10C) to high grade (20+C).
It does not generate electricity and hence no extra range, nor heat (well a little bit by itself because it consumes electricity).
This supposed extra range is obtained only by comparison to an equivalent journey done in a non-heatpump car.

Let’s say the journey is 200 miles and the non-heatpump car can just make it and no heating was used (well perhaps seat heating).
The same journey in a heatpump car will be exactly the same, it would just about make it, there is no extra range.

Now if the same journey was made with heating on, the non-heatpump car would not make it, it could be 50 miles short (3KW times 4 hours driving = 48 miles ish)
The heatpump car will would not make it either, however it would be short by 20 miles (1KW x 4hr = 16 miles). This is where the extra range is gained, the difference between 48 miles and 16 miles.
In the example above, the heatpump car would have given you an extra 48-16=32 miles.

So it is really a question of whether you want to travel in comfort (heat blasting), or range mode (very low heating) when the journey is really tight.
If the non-heatpump car lowered their temp to 1KW consumption, it too would "gain back" those 32 miles. These miles are not lost until the end of the journey, not before.

My 2p is that if one can do the journey just by using seat heating alone the heatpump car would actually have less range (because a heatpump would use more electricity than seat heating).
In my real world range example, in a non heat pump ID.3, I had the heating on.

All other things being equal, with the heat pump being the only difference, the more efficient heating would give me the extra range, in theory.
 

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Indeed - Who wants to Pay £30-40k for a state of the art car and be worried on whether you can heat it.
I certainly don't want to be making the decision between seat heating only or normal interior heating.
 

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Indeed - Who wants to Pay £30-40k for a state of the art car and be worried on whether you can heat it.
I certainly don't want to be making the decision between seat heating only or normal interior heating.
Exactly, it will come down to how you’ll be using the car as to whether it’s worth specifying the heat pump or not.

Personally, I’ll always heat the car, even if that means stopping for a few minutes somewhere If necessary, I’m too old for Apollo 13 mode. 🙂
 

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I think this sort of thing is more of an issue for people coming to EVs for the first time. I know I um'd and ah'd a lot when I was getting my e-Golf. But now with hindsight it's very rare that that few extra miles are even a consideration. And as people have said here, on the rare occasion it is an issue, I'd rather be warm and comfortable on a long journey, that is probably going to involve a stop for being a human anyway.

If you are in the rural highlands or take road trips to the fjords, I think it might then be worth it. For the rest of us it's an extra 3 mins at a charger in rare long journeys.
 

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I have been trying to look into this a little. It clearly is an expensive option to add however it seems that the heat pump in the ID.3 is the first of a new generation running a much higher pressure and using r744 refrigerant. The main advantages seem to be it works better/at lower temperatures. I think Mercedes are the only other manufacturer using this so far.

I can't find much from VW UK but here is a chart from VW France.

View attachment 137448

and a video about the heating and cooling. Seem like this could be a really useful upgrade if you live in the north and even more so when the smaller battery pack comes out

I just joined the forum to look specifically for this piece of info to see if the benefit of ordering an Id3 with a heat pump is worth an additional 1250 pounds. So it looks like up to 10C there is a an additional 60+ km range and I hate being cold driving in the winter. Looks like decision made on this option. Thanks.
 

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I just joined the forum to look specifically for this piece of info to see if the benefit of ordering an Id3 with a heat pump is worth an additional 1250 pounds. So it looks like up to 10C there is a an additional 60+ km range and I hate being cold driving in the winter. Looks like decision made on this option. Thanks.
Welcome!

It should be noted that the only info anybody has so far about the ID.3 heat pump is that gleaned from the graphs people have found.

How that translates into the real world, nobody knows yet.

From the graphs it looks like 10% or so at 10c, so more like 42 km on a 58 kWh battery based on the WLTP, in theory.
 

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Discussion Starter #39
How that translates into the real world, nobody knows yet.
We do now


I have not watched it but this is in the comments section

For people in a bit of a hurry, like me :D [3:36:17 Richard P] 17.7 vs 16.4 kWh per 100 km. Battery 20% him 29%. Estimating 12% better
 

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Discussion Starter #40
I have been surprised at how much interest this thread has generated and also the strength of feeling.

Perhaps what we can all agree on is - that although the heat pump is an expensive addition no one in Northern Europe will end paying full price for it in terms of total cost of ownership over the time you own the car. Just how much it pays for itself or adds convenance will depend on your use case, so for some people it may be a great addition, others not so.

It's good to stay friends !
 
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