Worst case range - e-Niro

14959 Views 96 Replies 29 Participants Last post by jonsel, Apr 10, 2021

a303

Discussion Starter · Apr 6, 2021

Can I please pick the hive-mind of the e-Niro drivers on here?

I have a 30kwh Leaf at the moment. I love almost everything about it, except the range when on a longer motorway run, especially in cold/wet weather.

I've also got a second car, which basically only gets used for those longer journeys.

I'd like to sell both and replace with one EV.

However, it would need to cope with a 200 mile round trip without charging. That's 100 miles out, and the same back again. No charging at the destination. Mostly motorways, sitting at 70mph.

It would need to do that summer or winter, dry or rain, and with the heater or a/c on! And it would need to get me home with a reasonable margin left so I'm not panicking all the way home about if I'm going to get stuck...

And it would need to do it today, and for the next six or seven years (as that's how long I tend to keep my cars).

It feels like a lot of demands! Can the e-Niro do that? Or am I expecting too much?

I'd really appreciate the wisdom of your experience before I make an expensive mistake!

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Woodulike

· #81 · Apr 8, 2021

prawlin said:
@Bill N Sorry Bill but on this one comment I can’t agree that Eniro isn’t a fun drive. I find it incredibly fun to drive. In fact it’s the drive over and above everything else that really does it for me. Despite my own quite long list of negatives, it still puts a big smile on my face every time I drive it. With respect I see that you don’t drive the Eniro yourself, so are you really in the position to make such a comment? I know your car is loosely similar but it’s not the same by any means. Cheers Peter.

Fun to drive is going to be a very personal thing, but I would find the Niro or Kona hard to discribe as fun. I owned a Niro for over a year and had a Kona briefly.
There's not many EVs that are really fun to drive, they are large and heavy, but the i3 was fun for the couple of days I drove it and the ID3 I'm driving now is the most fun to drive car I've owned for quite a while, but that's because I've had family cars for the past 20 years!
I would need to take an ICE out on a track to remember how to have fun in a car, IMO

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Ambassador Spock

· #82 · Apr 8, 2021

Woodulike said:
Fun to drive is going to be a very personal thing, but I would find the Niro or Kona hard to discribe as fun. I owned a Niro for over a year and had a Kona briefly.
There's not many EVs that are really fun to drive, they are large and heavy, but the i3 was fun for the couple of days I drove it and the ID3 I'm driving now is the most fun to drive car I've owned for quite a while, but that's because I've had family cars for the past 20 years!
I would need to take an ICE out on a track to remember how to have fun in a car, IMO

I think my Zoe is a lot of fun to drive, but then again, I was the kid in in high school who had a choice between his brother's Jeep and his parent's minivan and usually picked the latter because it got better gas mileage... 😂

Bill N

· #83 · Apr 8, 2021

Yeah, we’re not quite talking 'fun' in the same sense as an Elise, MX5, Megane R26R etc but based on all sorts of reviews including from people like Chris Harris, Harry Metcalfe etc it would seem the Honda e, Mini & MX30 are about as good as it gets at the moment - at least unless you’ve got the cash for a Taycan. But also, 'fun' doesn’t necessarily have to mean it handles brilliantly, or even is particularly fast...it’s often just about how a car feels and how it makes you feel when you drive it, whether it feels engaging. The i3 fits this category, for me, and it seems for most people who’ve had one. The Kona (and I’m pretty sure most people would say the same about the eNiro too) are sensible and mostly competent, but they aren’t exactly the sort of cars you go for a spirited drive in for the hell of it...lol! Of course, ‘fun’ can legitimately also mean going out and recording your dash to note how many mi/kWh you get, and that sort of thing, but in the generally accepted traditional sense, it’s a big stretch to call them fun unless your reference point is perhaps something like a Korean diesel powered crossover/SUV. Then the EVs are definitely going to be more fun to most, but they are not really fun-fun in the normal sense when compared with other alternatives.

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artyman

· #84 · Apr 8, 2021

Well I don't push on in the way some drives do but I do like to maintain pace, keeping inertia was a habit in my Mercedes, I could see little point in hammering up behind someone and then having to brake, a waste of fuel, at least in the Eniro I get something back when I take the foot off the go pedal. It is also faster accelerating than my Mecedes despite the weight, so as far as I'm concerned an enjoyble vehicle to drive.

dougconran

· #85 · Apr 8, 2021

I think that 'fun to drive' would not be the first attribute that springs to mind when deciding whether a car can eke out the necessary miles on a cold, wet, windy winter's evening.

The OP asked whether the e-Niro could achieve at least 200 miles in worst case and, in my view, it can in all but the very worst case. Given the profile of the type of journeys he is proposing I would say that, if you can afford it, get it, it will not disappoint you. If you can't cadge a few kWhs from your friends (and you might not want to if you want them to remain friends!) then the odd 5-10min break on the journey home is no hardship, I have done that several times (before Covid, of course .

)

Bill N

· #86 · Apr 8, 2021

But if a 5-10 charging break a few times a year is no real hardship then the question is how much more hardship, really, is a slightly longer break a few times a year to add more kWhs to a car with a smaller battery, which may be more enjoyable to drive on other occasions.

For example, Newbury to Taunton (110miles each way).

70mph max, 0°C, 5mph headwind, raining.

My Kona would need 1x 20-25min charge.

My i3 would have needed 2x 30min charges.

70mph, 15°C, no wind, dry.

Kona - just about no charge needed

i3 - 35mins charging (either in one go or split)

Is that really a lot more hardship if that sort of journey is only made several times a year?

Or is it more hardship to drive a car which is carrying around a heavy battery, most of which really isn’t needed 95% of the time, when you could be driving something else?

Obviously if the specific charger you need to visit in a car like the i3 causes you an issue, then it can cloud the decision, but I think you have to consider how long are unreliable, single unit chargers going to be around, how long until a new Instavolt double unit site pops up on the route, and is it definitely worth basing a decision on which car to buy based on something which could well change in the next 6 months or less.

Just some food for thought really.

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Xinix

· #87 · Apr 8, 2021

To each their own but apparently the OP is interested in EVs, actually already has one, and has the means to buy a better one. I hope we all realize that every EV that replaces a diesel is one step closer to mitigating the effects of the climate crisis.

With that in mind I personally cannot fathom that someone would consider dieseling on just because once in a blue moon they'd have to stop for 10 minutes on a 200 mile journey in order to put some more electrons in the battery.

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a303

Discussion Starter · #88 · Apr 9, 2021

Xinix said:
To each their own but apparently the OP is interested in EVs, actually already has one, and has the means to buy a better one. I hope we all realize that every EV that replaces a diesel is one step closer to mitigating the effects of the climate crisis.

With that in mind I personally cannot fathom that someone would consider dieseling on just because once in a blue moon they'd have to stop for 10 minutes on a 200 mile journey in order to put some more electrons in the battery.

Hi - OP here!

You're right, Xinix - I'm very much a proponent of EVs. I've been driving electric for more than 4 years; I've encouraged two of my friends to also buy a Leaf each. It's absolutely my go-to for my next car, and I am prepared to make compromises to make that work.

The question is how far I'm willing to compromise, even as a fan of EVs:

I'd have no problem stopping for 10 minutes "once in a blue moon", or even 20 or 30 minutes every time I do those longer journeys IF I had confidence that it would only be a brief stop. However, I've probably used rapid chargers maybe 20 times so far, and about 25% of the time it's proven to be a problem. I've encountered:

broken chargers (more than once; despite the provider's own website saying they were up and running) leaving me unable to charge
a long queue (caused by someone using a rapid charger at 3kw to recharge their hybrid)
chargers refusing to accept payment and hence work
charges on the map not existing in real life, and vice-versa
rapid charger cables being locked into my car because the app crashes, leaving me trapped, and requiring a lengthy wait in a phone queue until someone can remotely reset the charger (had that one twice!)

It's this rubbish that I'm really trying to avoid!

And, it's worth not losing sight of the up-front cost of the cars. I can get a c.2 year old e-Niro for just under £30k; I don't know what a petrol or PHEV equivalent would cost - but not too far off half that? OK, i'll recover some of that in running costs, but that extra money up front is a big consideration for me.

Plus, my wife and kids will be in the car for each of these journeys. They don't share my interest in EVs, and will therefore be a lot less understanding if/when something goes wrong.

So, I'm trying to find a way to make this work - I had hoped the e-Niro would be the magic answer that would allow me to go full-electric but yet completely escape the perils of the public charging network. Not sure it 100% achieves that. Which leaves me with having to make some tricky choices!

(Counter-argument: yes the charging network is improving all the time; no, I've not tried Instavolt - maybe they're better and I've been using the dodgy networks and getting a bad experience!)

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Edd Beesley

· #89 · Apr 9, 2021

a303 said:
Hi - OP here!

You're right, Xinix - I'm very much a proponent of EVs. I've been driving electric for more than 4 years; I've encouraged two of my friends to also buy a Leaf each. It's absolutely my go-to for my next car, and I am prepared to make compromises to make that work.

The question is how far I'm willing to compromise, even as a fan of EVs:

I'd have no problem stopping for 10 minutes "once in a blue moon", or even 20 or 30 minutes every time I do those longer journeys IF I had confidence that it would only be a brief stop. However, I've probably used rapid chargers maybe 20 times so far, and about 25% of the time it's proven to be a problem. I've encountered:

broken chargers (more than once; despite the provider's own website saying they were up and running) leaving me unable to charge

a long queue (caused by someone using a rapid charger at 3kw to recharge their hybrid)

chargers refusing to accept payment and hence work

charges on the map not existing in real life, and vice-versa

rapid charger cables being locked into my car because the app crashes, leaving me trapped, and requiring a lengthy wait in a phone queue until someone can remotely reset the charger (had that one twice!)

It's this rubbish that I'm really trying to avoid!

And, it's worth not losing sight of the up-front cost of the cars. I can get a c.2 year old e-Niro for just under £30k; I don't know what a petrol or PHEV equivalent would cost - but not too far off half that? OK, i'll recover some of that in running costs, but that extra money up front is a big consideration for me.

Plus, my wife and kids will be in the car for each of these journeys. They don't share my interest in EVs, and will therefore be a lot less understanding if/when something goes wrong.

So, I'm trying to find a way to make this work - I had hoped the e-Niro would be the magic answer that would allow me to go full-electric but yet completely escape the perils of the public charging network. Not sure it 100% achieves that. Which leaves me with having to make some tricky choices!

(Counter-argument: yes the charging network is improving all the time; no, I've not tried Instavolt - maybe they're better and I've been using the dodgy networks and getting a bad experience!)

Yes rapid infrastructure gets better all the time. when I had my first plug-in car in 2010 I believe there was one rapid at Mitsubishi headquarters and that was it!

I also understand the frustration that comes with having family in the car. A 130 mile round trip in our Leaf required 2x rapid stops and we had to cross the motorway to charge as both units one side were bust, then the working one on the other side crapped out just after we walked away to feed the family, and then they refused to lift the barrier to let us cross back over, cue one crying partner and two screaming kids. We swapped our second Leaf for a hybrid a couple weeks after that.

but with the Niro, well, to get your range targets, it’s a fairly simple decision. Stop and charge in the dead of winter and deal with the uncertainty, or, just go a bit slower. If you end up with enough miles in hand, great, speed up again. If this is unpopular with your wife then explain the rationale - do you want to go slightly slower, and arrive home 15 minutes later than ideal, or, go faster but have to stop and charge and spin the wheel of misfortune?

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Bill N

· #90 · Apr 9, 2021 (Edited)

a303 said:
However, I've probably used rapid chargers maybe 20 times so far, and about 25% of the time it's proven to be a problem.

Gosh! That’s a bad record! Not surprised you are concerned! I’ve used rapids many multiple times more than that in many areas of the UK, in Belgium and Germany and only had issues at, genuinely, less than 1%. (I can only think of 2 or 3 individual occasions in total and none where I couldn’t charge and it actually mattered).

I think a lot comes down to luck, and I’ve no doubt I’ve been very lucky so far... but also, I made a decision from the outset on my EV adventure two years ago to basically avoid anything that looked remotely dodgy on ZapMap & PlugShare, and I’ve only visited an Ecotricity once... so I’m quite sure that approach has also helped me to avoid disappointment. Obviously though, I do appreciate that in certain areas of the country there just hasn’t been too many options, particularly with shorter range cars.

a303 said:
I've not tried Instavolt - maybe they're better and I've been using the dodgy networks and getting a bad experience!

Definitely better!

Bill N

· #91 · Apr 9, 2021

Seriously, the more I think about it....contemplating buying a car with a big, expensive battery to try and cover 200 miles, just 6 times a year, because you are concerned about rapid charging, but have never tried using Instavolt, just seems like a big misstep to me.

If it were me, I would be inclined to invest perhaps a little additional time and money in charging (ie seeking out the reliable chargers and paying more per kWh if necessary), rather than spending 000s more on battery cells that you simply won’t need the vast majority of the time.

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EVJourney

· #92 · Apr 9, 2021

a303 said:
It's this rubbish that I'm really trying to avoid!

Sounds to me like you are ultimately trying to convince yourself it is a bad idea, cost, charging, wife + kids not onboard (mentally), caring about a 10-30 minute delay 6 times a year.

No to sound to harsh but just forget it, you aren't in the right frame of mind, caring so much about a slight inconvenience isn't going to help matters either. We take so much for granted these days, and have become used to on-demand everything that switching something to try to maybe help protect the future unless it is immediately perfect is terrible. You bought a Leaf, had some bad experiences, chalk it up to being an early(ish) adopter, keep what you have, and save some money.

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Bill N

· #93 · Apr 9, 2021

It could be interesting to see to what extent the lifetime environmental benefit of running an EV is diminished if that EV is one with a battery that is unnecessarily large for the vast majority of journeys travelled by that car.

ie - a comparison between a 39kWh eNiro and a 64kWh eNiro over a lifetime where the vast majority of journeys could have been covered just as easily by the 39kWh version.

Teal9

· #94 · Apr 9, 2021

Bill N said:
It could be interesting to see to what extent the lifetime environmental benefit of running an EV is diminished if that EV is one with a battery that is unnecessarily large for the vast majority of journeys travelled by that car.

ie - a comparison between a 39kWh eNiro and a 64kWh eNiro over a lifetime where the vast majority of journeys could have been covered just as easily by the 39kWh version.

BBC news app , an article today claims heavy EV truck can compete with diesel on the basis , if there are very rapid chargers located at strategic points to recharge the battery within 40 mins. The truck battery therefore doesn't need to be extra large capacity.
The problem is, these super fast truck chargers are not yet available.

On that basis a 39kwh battery EV mainly used for short journeys over a lifetime should be greener

dougconran

· #95 · Apr 9, 2021

a303 said:
I'd have no problem stopping for 10 minutes "once in a blue moon", or even 20 or 30 minutes every time I do those longer journeys IF I had confidence that it would only be a brief stop. However, I've probably used rapid chargers maybe 20 times so far, and about 25% of the time it's proven to be a problem. I've encountered:

broken chargers (more than once; despite the provider's own website saying they were up and running) leaving me unable to charge

a long queue (caused by someone using a rapid charger at 3kw to recharge their hybrid)

chargers refusing to accept payment and hence work

charges on the map not existing in real life, and vice-versa

rapid charger cables being locked into my car because the app crashes, leaving me trapped, and requiring a lengthy wait in a phone queue until someone can remotely reset the charger (had that one twice!)

It's this rubbish that I'm really trying to avoid!

It seems to me that you specified your original criteria on the assumption that you would have to contend with faulty chargers. But, as @Bill N and others have said, Instavolt chargers just work, plus they are generally in pairs plus they have an app (can't remember what it is) showing current availability. They consistently come out top in charging network surveys for a reason (and Ecotricity consistently come out bottom for the same reason!). With an e-Niro you are unlikely to ever need an en-route charge but, if you do, pick an Instavolt and you won't have a problem. If an e-Niro stretches your budget more than you are comfortable with then go for a smaller battery car (or even just keep your Leaf) and accept the need to charge but at a reliable charger (ie Instavolt or possibly Grid Serve [but not Ionity in a Leaf!]).

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peterca

· #96 · Apr 9, 2021

I am optimistic that the partnership between Ecotricity and Gridserve will produce a much improved charging system.
I must confess in 7 years with a Leaf I never failed to obtain a charge when required - although I admit that is with chademo which I think has proved more reliable than CCS.
If I am right that the Ecotricity / Gridserve chargers will shortly be much more reliable there will be less worry about getting a charge on route.

jonsel

· #97 · Apr 10, 2021

I've been driving EVs for 8 years and even after all this time I still marvel at the technology and gizmos. I still get a thrill from the linear acceleration and serenity of the drive.

I occasionally have to use our 2010 Prius and even that feels ancient and then look at ICEs spewing out fumes thinking how bizarre it is that manufacturers are still allowed to churn them out by the millions.

Do I find our Kona fun? It's a lot more fun than any other 'modern' car I've had but I still have some fond memories of many of our old classic cars. But that's probably more an age thing given how unreliable they all were!

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