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More charging spots or more speed

  • More spots

    Votes: 66 95.7%
  • More speed

    Votes: 3 4.3%
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Nissan LEAF 2.0 40kWh, Seat Mii
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... flexible load balancing would be good - if I plug in at low SoC and can take eg 100kw for a brief period, and the car sharing my charger is at 80% and throttled down to 30kw, then give me the full 100. So some kind of profile based on demand from the car, total kwh delivered for that session (so if a fast charging car like an etron has been charging for a long time and already had a bunch of kwh delivered it might get throttled a little more in favour of a newly connected one)
This is exactly what Gridserve's newly installed ABB chargers will do, within a power budget of 120kW, when their software upgrade arrives in a month or two.
 

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There is a lot of theory but not much consideration of practice.

What time is lost to change over time.
How much time is lost to finished chargers.
How many are topping up for just in case and cannot charge at full speed.
How many are fully charging to 100%
How many are charging when they dont really need to but might as well whilst eating.
How many are charging more than they need to get to their destination charger.
How many spaces are iced
etc

I would love to see the figs for capacity factors and dwell time.
 

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42k miles on public charging. Am I an expert yet?
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There is a lot of theory but not much consideration of practice.

What time is lost to change over time.
How much time is lost to finished chargers.
How many are topping up for just in case and cannot charge at full speed.
How many are fully charging to 100%
How many are charging when they dont really need to but might as well whilst eating.
How many are charging more than they need to get to their destination charger.
How many spaces are iced
etc

I would love to see the figs for capacity factors and dwell time.
I don't think anybody will be able to give you those figures - there's just no way of collecting them reliably.

But everything you point out just backs up the need for more charge sockets with power sharing. Power sharing should be able to automatically take in to account everyone who's car can't take the capacity (which is probably a good proportion of people), whilst actually leaving a plug and some capacity for those who need it. It's the way Tesla Superchargers have successfully worked for years....
 
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ID.4 Life Pure
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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
Fairly conclusive!
Indeed. I hope the networks see it or have had similar results in the market research as I bet investors would be happy to know they could half charger unit cost and please more people at once.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
147376

Looking at this plan for reading I'd be interested to know if it was considered to extend the tarmac the other side of the chargers to create 10 additional slots with no additional charger cost (assuming the chosen chargers are dual charging capable).
 

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I’d be happy in the interim to see more 13A plugs for employee parking.

I travel a lot for work and have worked retail and offices, the main thing I see is people driving 30,40,50,60 miles round trip for work, only for their car to sit in a car park all day. Realistically if they had access to even just a 13A plug with the granny cable they could replenish the commute miles and maybe a couple more.

This would prob go a great way towards people making the switch to EV’s for very little cost to car parks. Yes long term it’s rapids (and availability of rapids, I’m in the 50-150kW but more of them available camp), but due to the amount of people that home charging isn’t feasible for, those people switching their commuter car would help loads for the environmental benefit while also reducing a little strain on rapids (As if they can’t charge at home the only alternative really is a rapid couple times a week).

Westfield did this really well in London, I think Shepherd’s Bush… there was just a load of bays along a wall marked for EV’s with 13A sockets. I didn’t feel bad leaving my PHEV plugged in at the time while I went to a meeting, as with loads of availability I wasn’t stealing a “spot” (a PHEV on a rapid I know is a big no no lol). I imagine large numbers could be deployed fairly easily…a bank of 20 plugs, even if all occupied, is still only drawing 200A ish… shouldn’t be a massive job to install.
 

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Nissan LEAF 2.0 40kWh, Seat Mii
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I’d be happy in the interim to see more 13A plugs for employee parking.
They'd better be super high quality sockets, as they are prone to overheating and they'll be plugged in for 8 hours unsupervised.
A row of type 2 connectors limited to 2-3kW (which is easy to do) would be better.
As for car parks generally, I've seen pictures of Norwegian multi storey parks with rows of cars plugged into charging posts.
 

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Why would you fit more Chademo when it’s dying rapidly. CCS is pretty much what every EV in the uk now has - its like bringing out a new range of Betamax video recorders!
Nissan Leaf's are still on sale. There's cars out there, and whilst that's the case some sort of support is needed.


There was another comment further up about half speed being full speed for a Leaf... apparently the 62kwh Leaf does actually do up to around 75kw charging on some of these 150kw chargers with Chademo e.g. BP Polar (even though they don't state it anywhere).
 

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I’d be happy in the interim to see more 13A plugs for employee parking.

I travel a lot for work and have worked retail and offices, the main thing I see is people driving 30,40,50,60 miles round trip for work, only for their car to sit in a car park all day. Realistically if they had access to even just a 13A plug with the granny cable they could replenish the commute miles and maybe a couple more.

This would prob go a great way towards people making the switch to EV’s for very little cost to car parks. Yes long term it’s rapids (and availability of rapids, I’m in the 50-150kW but more of them available camp), but due to the amount of people that home charging isn’t feasible for, those people switching their commuter car would help loads for the environmental benefit while also reducing a little strain on rapids (As if they can’t charge at home the only alternative really is a rapid couple times a week).

Westfield did this really well in London, I think Shepherd’s Bush… there was just a load of bays along a wall marked for EV’s with 13A sockets. I didn’t feel bad leaving my PHEV plugged in at the time while I went to a meeting, as with loads of availability I wasn’t stealing a “spot” (a PHEV on a rapid I know is a big no no lol). I imagine large numbers could be deployed fairly easily…a bank of 20 plugs, even if all occupied, is still only drawing 200A ish… shouldn’t be a massive job to install.
When there is destination charging everywhere at work,hotels, friends and relatives, retail outlets then the requirements for rapid on route charging will decline. Just ask why would anyone pay 2to 3 x as much for a on route charge (with the newer EVs capable of a real 200ml ) - perhaps business type users who could not care about the cost. Dont invest in on route charging cos. Imagine somepeple willing to pay 2x as much for the petrol -yeah right.

I get the feeling that at the moment chargers are being used by the just in case brigade because they have no faith in the cars or the chargers. (just like 50 yrs ago people would fill the tank up when the gauge showed 1/2 )
 

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LEAF N-TEC 62KW
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Nissan Leaf's are still on sale. There's cars out there, and whilst that's the case some sort of support is needed.


There was another comment further up about half speed being full speed for a Leaf... apparently the 62kwh Leaf does actually do up to around 75kw charging on some of these 150kw chargers with Chademo e.g. BP Polar (even though they don't state it anywhere).
Nissan would complain loudly and cancel further investment if the government stood by and let the CPOs install CCS only chargers for the next 10 o more years.

The 62kw Leaf does charge at 71kwh up to 40% and its' not the only one, eg Kias & Hyundais max out at 75kw so it's just another snide anti Leaf comment.
 

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42k miles on public charging. Am I an expert yet?
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I’d be happy in the interim to see more 13A plugs for employee parking.

I travel a lot for work and have worked retail and offices, the main thing I see is people driving 30,40,50,60 miles round trip for work, only for their car to sit in a car park all day. Realistically if they had access to even just a 13A plug with the granny cable they could replenish the commute miles and maybe a couple more.

This would prob go a great way towards people making the switch to EV’s for very little cost to car parks. Yes long term it’s rapids (and availability of rapids, I’m in the 50-150kW but more of them available camp), but due to the amount of people that home charging isn’t feasible for, those people switching their commuter car would help loads for the environmental benefit while also reducing a little strain on rapids (As if they can’t charge at home the only alternative really is a rapid couple times a week).

Westfield did this really well in London, I think Shepherd’s Bush… there was just a load of bays along a wall marked for EV’s with 13A sockets. I didn’t feel bad leaving my PHEV plugged in at the time while I went to a meeting, as with loads of availability I wasn’t stealing a “spot” (a PHEV on a rapid I know is a big no no lol). I imagine large numbers could be deployed fairly easily…a bank of 20 plugs, even if all occupied, is still only drawing 200A ish… shouldn’t be a massive job to install.
I disagree with your long term outlook.

Long term destination charging needs to be the norm - rapid charging on that scale is going to be insanely expensive. Destination charging will barely need that many infrastructure upgrades. If every car is plugged in all the time it's parked, the need for rapid charging will be way, way lower and the whole EV ownership experience will be way, way better for everyone.

13A sockets are not the way forward though - but to a business it's unlikely to cost that much more to simply install proper Type 2 sockets. The only sensible way forward is for there to be floods of Type 2 sockets in every car park everywhere, with rapid charging in hubs for emergencies and long distance travel. It's the only sensible way.
 

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42k miles on public charging. Am I an expert yet?
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Nissan would complain loudly and cancel further investment if the government stood by and let the CPOs install CCS only chargers for the next 10 o more years.

The 62kw Leaf does charge at 71kwh up to 40% and its' not the only one, eg Kias & Hyundais max out at 75kw so it's just another snide anti Leaf comment.
Even a Leaf 30 will happily charge at 48kW for some of it's charge cycle in the right conditions.

Like every car, it can't charge full speed through the whole battery because that just isn't how batteries work. A Leaf will spend the same amount of time on a charger as any other car - less if it's only a 50kW charger. Anyone who thinks they're getting in the way just doesn't understand how it works. In reality it's usually the large battery car only charging at 50kW but sat there charging from 5% to 100% that causes problems for everyone else who only needs a 15 minute boost.
 
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Even a Leaf 30 will happily charge at 48kW for some of it's charge cycle in the right conditions.

Like every car, it can't charge full speed through the whole battery because that just isn't how batteries work. A Leaf will spend the same amount of time on a charger as any other car - less if it's only a 50kW charger. Anyone who thinks they're getting in the way just doesn't understand how it works. In reality it's usually the large battery car only charging at 50kW but sat there charging from 5% to 100% that causes problems for everyone else who only needs a 15 minute boost.
Yes whilst agreeing with the points you make remember that there are more RAPID Chad chargers than CCS at the moment but the crossover point will come soon. What is the ratio of cars Chad to CCs on the roads now and what will it be in the future. I would suggest that Chad chargers are more than well catered for ?
 

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42k miles on public charging. Am I an expert yet?
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Yes whilst agreeing with the points you make remember that there are more RAPID Chad chargers than CCS at the moment but the crossover point will come soon. What is the ratio of cars Chad to CCs on the roads now and what will it be in the future. I would suggest that Chad chargers are more than well catered for ?
I'd argue there are more CCS than CHAdeMo - every operator except Ionity and Gridserve install CHAdeMo + CCS by default on all units.

It doesn't matter what the ratio of cars is - it matters that the CHAdeMo cars still exist and will for many many years to come, and they need the infrastructure. The infrastructure should support all vehicles, not only work to the panacea 10+ years time ideal world.
 

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42k miles on public charging. Am I an expert yet?
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Sorry but you would be wrong or at least from the stats on Zap maps.
Intersting. Where are all these non-CCS units then? My guess:

- Legacy Electric Highway
- Nissan dealers, where all the huge number of CCS units at JLR/Peugeot/Vauxhall/VW/Audi/Skoda dealers aren't listed on Zap Map
 

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There are now almost an equal number of ccs and chademo, with ccs having caught up. (sorry can't remember who tweeted the actual figures)
 

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Nissan would complain loudly and cancel further investment if the government stood by and let the CPOs install CCS only chargers for the next 10 o more years.

The 62kw Leaf does charge at 71kwh up to 40% and its' not the only one, eg Kias & Hyundais max out at 75kw so it's just another snide anti Leaf comment.
Ha, ha. That was my (tongue-in-cheek) comment & hopefully soon I will own a Leaf. So, I'm not anti Leaf at all, just realistic that, by 2021 standards, rapid charging is not the highlight of the Leaf's spec.

What's sauce for the goose though...

There aren't any current EVs I'm aware of that can charge at 350kW. Tesla claim some of their cars can go to 250kW & maybe a few others can too. But even that's peak charging -- the average rate over a decent charge will be significantly lower. 350kW chargers are useful future proofing but will be poorly utilised if only charging one car at a time. Their main advantage today is their ability to support two cars charging simultaneously at a still very high rate. In this respect, what's obviously true of the Leaf is also true of almost all current EVs: half speed (or less!) for the charger is full speed for the car.

Kind regards
- Garry
 
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