[pob42]

It looks like I may have a looped electricity supply (two thick cables going into the bottom of the cut-out).

Does anyone know if is chargers such as the Zappi, which automatically limit their charge rate if the rest of the house is pulling some current, can be just installed in this situation or will the DNO insist on the looped supply being disconnected first?

Whilst I'm happy to have my driveway dug up, it is more likely that it would be my neighbours that would need it done. This could be an issue.

Thanks

 

[208's Plenty]

I had this problem and you can read my posts on it.

See here. UK Charge-point options for 'Looped Supply'

My drive was dug up even though it was my neighbours house that required new cabling. a new feed came from the pavement, cable running under my drive. His cable into my meter was severed and they just connected the cable running across my drive to his house. No disturbance to him other than his power supply being turned off for a few minutes.

Once your DNO discover you need to charge an EV at home, they will block any attempts at an EVSE install until all of the necessary work is done, unlooping of a looped supply.
They were really helpful to me but insistent that no charging of my car took place until the work was finished.

 

[WonkoTheSaneUK]

I also have a looped supply, but the DNO (SP Energy) deemed there was enough power available to not unloop.
I was required to get an uprated cutout from the DNO, and got an isolator installed alongside my smart meters (SMETS2).
The new cutout seems to have been boosted from 60A to the full 100A without unlooping.

However, one of the DNO guys came a couple of months after my cutout was uprated, to uprate my cutout.
Apparently, the work had slipped through their booking system for a second time.
He said that the DNO was looking to unloop the street anyway to get ahead of the need for chargers in every house!

 

[jeffUK]

After doing an online site survey for an EV charger install this past week I've discovered I've got a looped supply that goes off to my neighbours - never really investigated it before. The fuse on the cutout is 60A.

I spoke to the DNO (UK Power Networks) who were very helpful and said they'd run in new 100A supplies to both properties for free. I didn't have my neighbours surname or phone number so had to speak to them to get that. I explained the situation, pointing out that if there was a problem with the incoming supply and I was away, the DNO couldn't do anything to restore their power until I got back.

They basically said they didn't want the hassle, even though it was free and (arguably) they'd benefit more than I would. Both driveways are paved, so not the worst for the DNO to have to deal with. I think if they asked to be unlooped in the future they'd have to pay for it, which makes their refusal even more silly. Their disruption would be less than mine - they've got a 'normal' carpeted floor in the hall, mine is parquet. They then told me they'd found out that everyone in the street is likely to have to have new gas feeds run in next year. Presumably they'll let the gas people do that. They were trying to say "can't they just run in a new supply to you and leave us as we are". Didn't have the heart to explain it doesn't really work like that, and even if it did, the DNO wouldn't want to leave their supply cable running though my house.

Frustratingly he already has an e-tron he charges with a 13A charger. He was showing me how that was fine and it was charging at 10A. I did try to explain having a BEV would be somewhat different and I'd want the ability to charge at 30A.

The DNO is coming at the end of next week to look at upgrading the cutout for one with a 100A fuse. I was told that if that if the incoming supply cables are at least 25mm diameter (hard to tell with the amount of tape on them), then a 100A fuse should be possible. If it is then I was told their wouldn't need to be a limit of any charger and I could have one running at the full 30A.

Fortunately I've not ordered my BEV yet, just waiting to see what happens when the DNO visits. If they find a safety issue I think they can mandate running in new supplies - here's hoping

I was leaning towards the Zappi anyway incase I get solar panels in the future and because installing an earth rod in a convenient location would be tricky. Now I know it can current limit as well it definitely looks like the best option.

 

[jeffUK]

Looking at my incoming supply cables I'm not sure they are the 25mm required for them to fit the 100A fuse, guess I'll know more next Friday 😬

 

[dk6780]

They mean 25mm^2 area, not 25mm diameter. The conductor needs to be of the order of 10.6mm diameter, so around 15mm diameter with insulation. Clearly don't start applying a vernier caliper or micrometer to measure the diameter when it is Live! 🙏

 

[Jrtev]

Most companies do surveys and if you màke a extra note of it theyll contact DNO for you. All DNOs are different.

 

[jeffUK]

Most companies do surveys and if you màke a extra note of it theyll contact DNO for you. All DNOs are different.

Thanks - as it was an enquiry with the installer, I took up speaking to the DNO. We'll see what they say when they visit.

They mean 25mm^2 area, not 25mm diameter. The conductor needs to be of the order of 10.6mm diameter, so around 15mm diameter with insulation. Clearly don't start applying a vernier caliper or micrometer to measure the diameter when it is Live! 🙏

Ah thanks, there is the chance they might be then. Don't worry, I won't be going near anything, even if it's frustrating to wait to know whether this can be sorted without my neighbours agreeing to have a new supply run in (which they won't unless forced to).

 

[jeffUK]

An update on this, incase it helps anyone else.

I’ve had several conversations with UK Power Networks and two visits from them.

The end result is that - as the neighbours won’t agree to be unlooped - the engineers are going to upgrade my (very old) cutout with a 60A fuse, replacing it with a new one that has an 80A fuse. The neighbours will also get a new cutout but with a 60A fuse. (This, I believe, is down to the cables that run in to their property.)

If the neighbours want to get themselves a full EV and 30A charger in the future (rather than their current e-tron charging at 13A) then they’ll have to request to be unlooped and possibly pay for it.

Meanwhile I can get my 30A charger when I need to (possible Feb time), so all good.

 

[rompik]

For the benefit of all these folks with looped supply let me ask (maybe silly??) question:

Can't DNO just run a new cable to your property, install a new fuse for your property to new cable and leave existing wiring to your neighbours?

 

[jeffUK]

Can't DNO just run a new cable to your property, install a new fuse for your property to new cable and leave existing wiring to your neighbours?

Short answer: No. (From my experience.)

Long answer:

If you’re the house which is looped off from, what the DNO won’t do is run a new cable to you and splice the existing cable so that it still runs to your neighbours. That would leave their supply running through your house for no good reason - a loop is one thing because it was installed that way (but the DNO will be keen to remove them if possible, makes their life easier in the long run), doing work now which leaves something like that in place is a definite no.

In terms of the disruption:

If your supply loops on to them then your neighbours will have the most disruption as they will have all the digging for a new supply to be run in. What the DNO does with your supply will vary - they might also run a new supply in to your house, or they might use the existing supply cable and cut off the loop to your neighbours. In this case your neighbours would have the most disruption.

If your supply loops off from your neighbour it’s you who would definitely have the most disruption. Whether your neighbour did would depend on what the DNO wanted or agreed to do with their existing supply cable. If they’re prepared to leave it and cut off the loop to you then the disruption for them is pretty minimal.

 

[jeffUK]

I should add that what has happened in my case (upgrading my fuse to 80A and leaving them with a 60A fuse) is a compromise the DNO has come up with instead of unlooping, so I can have a full 32A charger. The neighbours will still be on 60A and would have to be unlooped if they needed a 60A supply. At which point I believe both houses could have 100A.

 

[WonkoTheSaneUK]

I should add that what has happened in my case (upgrading my fuse to 80A and leaving them with a 60A fuse) is a compromise the DNO has come up with instead of unlooping, so I can have a full 32A charger. The neighbours will still be on 60A and would have to be unlooped if they needed a 60A supply. At which point I believe both houses could have 100A.

That's what I've been told too. My neighbours also got an EV, so are seriously considering asking to be unlooped from my house.

 

[jeffUK]

That's what I've been told too. My neighbours also got an EV, so are seriously considering asking to be unlooped from my house.

I’d definitely encourage them to do that

In the long run it’ll be much better for both houses.

With UK Power Networks it is the person who is looped off from who has to make the request. Might be different for your DNO, but if it’s the same and you’ve got neighbours who want to be unlooped (because they understand the benefits) that’s great and it should be very straightforward. Quite jealous if that is the case!

 

[208's Plenty]

If your neighbours have an EV or are considering one, they are adopting a very stupid stand point.

In my case the looped supply ran to my meter box. They dug up my drive, created a new feed for my neighbour, disconnected the loop to my meter ( chopped the cable at the meter and the under ground), then joined the new cable feed to the cut cable running from his house to the excavated ground on my drive. In the end all very tidy and no disruption to him.

 

[matt_c_]

I'm waiting to hear back from Pod point about my charger install and spotted these posts about a looped supply. A while ago I got a map from LinesearchbeforeUdig.co.uk and it shows I'm at the end of a loop. Is the 16 s/c and 25 s/c the size of cable? So 25mm^2 to my neighbour and then 16 on to me? Now slightly worried my brand new paved driveway will have to be dug up! My fuse says 60/80A on it

The houses on the map are missing all the extensions so look nothing like that anymore. So I don't know how accurate it is

 

[208's Plenty]

I can't comment on your circumstances, but my my neighbours cable was identical to mine (which fed both properties).

What I can say with confidence is that they know how to sort it.

If I read your diagram correctly, it's identical to mine, so they could put a new feed that comes from the road/pavement and runs alongside the blue line and then join it close to the dotted line on the 2c25s/c (B) side.

If your house is the yellow marked property, I'd be asking if they could do that.

 

[WonkoTheSaneUK]

I’d definitely encourage them to do that

In the long run it’ll be much better for both houses.

With UK Power Networks it is the person who is looped off from who has to make the request. Might be different for your DNO, but if it’s the same and you’ve got neighbours who want to be unlooped (because they understand the benefits) that’s great and it should be very straightforward. Quite jealous if that is the case!

It's SP Energy Networks around here (N Wales). Not sure who asks, but I had one of their guys come around during the summer to change my cutout.
He was very surprised to learn it had already been done months earlier, but did mention that SP were considering unlooping everyone in the area (at SP's expense!) to make future fault-finding easier.