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Discussion Starter #3

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Shame we won't be part of it. Seeing as this government subsidises the fossil fuel industry to the tune of £10.5bn a year*, I don't see much changing here.

* Source: UK has biggest fossil fuel subsidies in the EU, finds commission
A very disingenuous use of the data by the EU Commission to make the UK look bad. The main cause of the subsidy is the fact that the UK applies the minimum rate of VAT to home heating costs rather than the full amount. When Ken Clarke in John Major's Government tried to apply VAT at the then current 8% rate to home heating fuel there was a massive media campaign accusing them of wanting to freeze pensioners to death. It is obscene that this continues to this day, and that the biggest users gain the most which was not the stated intention of the campaigners who wouldn't accept a flat payment addition to the pension as compensation. This still needs to be rectified but is another political sacred cow that needs slaughtering along with the "triple lock" on pensions given by the Coalition Government to trump Gordon Brown's "double lock" to buy the "grey" vote.
The figure of £10.5bn is way out of date given the change in the UK's energy balance towards renewables.
 

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VAT is a regressive tax anyway, as the poor and the rich pay exactly the same. Income tax is a much fairer system, though I doubt that the likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg and the odious Patel would agree.

Good grief, I am beginning to sound like a socialist, which I assure you, I'm not! :) And hands off my pension, by the way.
 

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The worrying thing is that the world’s economy is predicated on people buying things they don’t really need. A tax on income is regressive; it kills enterprise and initiative and I prefer tax on purchases. The more affluent you are the bigger and better things you buy and the more tax you pay. When coupled with low or no tax on essentials it’s a good system (IMHO!).
 

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A very disingenuous use of the data by the EU Commission to make the UK look bad. The main cause of the subsidy is the fact that the UK applies the minimum rate of VAT to home heating costs rather than the full amount.
Subsidy is becoming a much abused and manipulated term. It used to be clear, a subsidy was a government paying an industry or a company some money to provide something. The government paid out some cash to subsidise something.

Now it's been so distorted that even things which are being taxed, with businesses and consumers paying taxes to the government, gets campaigners claiming its being subsidised to try to help their cause, which is clearly non-sense. Taxing something less than something else does not mean it's being subsidised, it's just being taxed less.

The fact we pay zero VAT on food doesn't mean the government has subsidised my dinner, or that because we don't pay VAT on water, that the government is subsidising me taking a bath.

Back to EVs though, there is going to be a problem for politicians and all of us eventually, that they are not being taxed highly enough - very little tax on the fuel compared to ICE, low road duty, company drivers paying far, far less tax than ICE and now potential the VAT payment going. A shift from ICE to EV is going to create a huge loss of tax revenue which will need to be filled, once they're more established I'd expect the tax burden on EVs will have to rise quite significantly.
 

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I still firmly believe that the externalized costs of burning FF are vastly higher than what the government collects in taxes on them. Health issues like cancer, asthma, allergies, costs of oil spills, loss of biodiversity, climate warming.... These costs are astronomical. If we go full electric, costs for society will be so much lower, we can do without the taxes on FF. In the meantime, go after Big Oil to pay for the mess they left behind to get us over the hump.
 

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While we can debate whether fossil fuel taxes cover their externalised costs, those taxes are going to governments and are needed to pay for public services, so if they disappear then either new taxes will need to be introduced or spending and services will need to be cut.

In the UK fuel duty raised around £28 Billion a year (that's just duty, VAT increases the total further), now if we all stopped burning fuel tomorrow I doubt the NHS, or other parts of government would see their costs fall by the same amount.
 

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In the UK fuel duty raised around £28 Billion a year (that's just duty, VAT increases the total further),

That's about £2.5 Billion a month, no wonder they are keen to get us all driving around again as the first step of relaxing lock down.

Working too, the roads were chock a block today !
 

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Just one of the proposals to support the EU car industry in the near future:


Just in time for Gigafactory Berlin to come online? :)
If the VAT was cancelled on EVs in the UK, manufacturers would probably creep the net prices up to compensate.
 

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... now if we all stopped burning fuel tomorrow I doubt the NHS, or other parts of government would see their costs fall by the same amount.
You're right, the effects will only be noticeable in the long term. That's why I suggest to go after Big Oil now to make them pay for all the damage they've done and the consequences yet to come.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
You're right, the effects will only be noticeable in the long term. That's why I suggest to go after Big Oil now to make them pay for all the damage they've done and the consequences yet to come.
Of course automakers making more profit is part of the aim here.

But we have a good example where the strategy has worked will, in Norway. I think they are over 50% BEV sales now.
 

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When I first buy my first ev, in 2017 the charger were free at 90 % of them... I said is ok to pay more in beginig, than with free fuel get some money back... With the fosil car will pay it again or twice paying the fuel... Now is oposite.. 10 % free charging... and there are very busy... And wich are payble are 4 time or more expensive than home charging... Take a look at Ionity... from 8Euro /charge now is ENORMES no one charge there, only if u have some deal with thay or u ar forced... In my Country we get the highest help from gouverment... 10k euro. But with this price for networks charger is not much...
 

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VAT is a regressive tax anyway, as the poor and the rich pay exactly the same. Income tax is a much fairer system, though I doubt that the likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg and the odious Patel would agree.

Good grief, I am beginning to sound like a socialist, which I assure you, I'm not! :) And hands off my pension, by the way.
Rich people buy more things and also more expensive things than poor people so they pay more tax.
 

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Rich people buy more things and also more expensive things than poor people so they pay more tax.
Rich people buy things through their companies, who pass the VAT and other taxes (i.e. corporation tax and employers income tax) along to their customers ;)
 
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