[MackScania]

Hi all

I know this gets asked a lot and I know their are already links to the Renault solutions for BMS updates etc but I just want to put my mind at ease that there isn't something more sinister going on.

I have a September 2020 registered i Iconic R110 ZE50. I have had it since the 20 May. It's my first EV and I am absolutely loving it. So much so that when I drive my partners Mercedes C Class Petrol Coupe which when we got it I used to absolutely love driving, I no longer like it. It feels so unresponsive compared to the Zoe!

Anyway, I got a OBD dongle and downloaded Canze and checked my SOH on 26 May and it was 94.5%. The car has 13,350 miles on it and I was reasonably happy with this figure. Being paranoid, I've periodically been checking it over the past few weeks and on the 17 June I checked it and it was at 92.7%. This made me proper paranoid and so today I charged the car to 100% and checked the "available energy" and SOH using Canze and they were 49.6kwh and 91.56% respectively.

I seen a post that suggested the SOH figure wasn't really anything to worry about if the car would do the mileage it's intended to do (roughtly 240 miles) however the available energy has concerned me slightly given how quickly the SOH is dropping. Does anyone know if this is the usable energy i.e. 49.6kwh out of the intended 52kwh or is this the total energy stored in the battery?

I have covered nearly 3,000 miles since 20 May. I usually let it get to about 30% before I think about charging it unless I know I'm going to do a long drive immediately after charging. I always use a 22kw charger, I live in a flat and do not have home charging and so rely on the public charging network (which so far has been fantastic and free here in Clydebank!).

1. Do you think the BMS update would resolve my issue. My LBC(1) software version is 530
2. Would the BMS update affect how much energy the battery actually takes on and so increasing my 49.6kwh to nearer the 52kwh expected?
3. Is using a 22kw charger more detrimental to the battery than using say a 7kw charger?

When I reset my GOM at 100% it says a range of 215, I've tried the two pedal reset etc and it doesn't affect the range, still 215 (not sure I'm convinced the 2 pedal reset actually works on the ZE50). In terms of driving style, I like to play the eco game with the computer and mostly get around 5 miles/kwh so if it was 52kwh I should be showing 260ish (assuming the previous owners record isn't included in the GOM calculations anymore). I have done a bit of driving tonight and it's showing 146 miles range at 63% and with a bit of maths that suggests 231 miles range but still not what I would expect giving the computer was telling me 5 miles/kwh when I left it.

For information, it's not a rapid charge, 22kw AC max.

Screenshots are below.

Thanks in advance
Paddy

 

[Mo1]

Your Zoe defo needs the BMS update, it corrects all the info you mention above, its not that you actually have such low capacity more like its being read wrong by the errant BMS.

I no longer have my Zoe but here's a screenshot from June last year LBC 553

 

[donald]

Hi all

I know this gets asked a lot and I know their are already links to the Renault solutions for BMS updates etc but I just want to put my mind at ease that there isn't something more sinister going on.

I have a September 2020 registered i Iconic R110 ZE50. I have had it since the 20 May. It's my first EV and I am absolutely loving it. So much so that when I drive my partners Mercedes C Class Petrol Coupe which when we got it I used to absolutely love driving, I no longer like it. It feels so unresponsive compared to the Zoe!

Anyway, I got a OBD dongle and downloaded Canze and checked my SOH on 26 May and it was 94.5%. The car has 13,350 miles on it and I was reasonably happy with this figure. Being paranoid, I've periodically been checking it over the past few weeks and on the 17 June I checked it and it was at 92.7%. This made me proper paranoid and so today I charged the car to 100% and checked the "available energy" and SOH using Canze and they were 49.6kwh and 91.56% respectively.

I seen a post that suggested the SOH figure wasn't really anything to worry about if the car would do the mileage it's intended to do (roughtly 240 miles) however the available energy has concerned me slightly given how quickly the SOH is dropping. Does anyone know if this is the usable energy i.e. 49.6kwh out of the intended 52kwh or is this the total energy stored in the battery?

I have covered nearly 3,000 miles since 20 May. I usually let it get to about 30% before I think about charging it unless I know I'm going to do a long drive immediately after charging. I always use a 22kw charger, I live in a flat and do not have home charging and so rely on the public charging network (which so far has been fantastic and free here in Clydebank!).

1. Do you think the BMS update would resolve my issue. My LBC(1) software version is 530
2. Would the BMS update affect how much energy the battery actually takes on and so increasing my 49.6kwh to nearer the 52kwh expected?
3. Is using a 22kw charger more detrimental to the battery than using say a 7kw charger?

When I reset my GOM at 100% it says a range of 215, I've tried the two pedal reset etc and it doesn't affect the range, still 215 (not sure I'm convinced the 2 pedal reset actually works on the ZE50). In terms of driving style, I like to play the eco game with the computer and mostly get around 5 miles/kwh so if it was 52kwh I should be showing 260ish (assuming the previous owners record isn't included in the GOM calculations anymore). I have done a bit of driving tonight and it's showing 146 miles range at 63% and with a bit of maths that suggests 231 miles range but still not what I would expect giving the computer was telling me 5 miles/kwh when I left it.

For information, it's not a rapid charge, 22kw AC max.

Screenshots are below.

Thanks in advance
Paddy

View attachment 163528
View attachment 163529
View attachment 163530

I think apps that try to determine battery health are extremely hazardous for the mental health of owners. These apps do not relay a reliable 'measure' of a battery.

Delete your app, and put your dongle in a drawer.

It's my warm friendly advice that only if you have a genuine reason for concern should you take it out and set up the app to look for issues.

 

[Little_discourage]

Ignore Donald above. The lack of the BMS update affects the range in this model and results in a less useable car. Really should have been a recall and weird that garages don't seem to really know about it. It's an easy fix. CanZe essential to diagnosing the problem.

 

[donald]

Ignore Donald above. The lack of the BMS update affects the range in this model and results in a less useable car. Really should have been a recall and weird that garages don't seem to really know about it. It's an easy fix. CanZe essential to diagnosing the problem.

Sorry, run this by me again.

Why do you need Can ZE ( a piece of unapproved reverse engineering that gives numbers no-one really know for sure what they mean) to diagnose that there is a software update due?

How are those two things remotely related?

 

[frogs4all]

I also have a Sept 2020 Iconic but mine has the CCS option (though I very rarely use it). Mine needed the BMS update. The car's maximum range had gone down just enough to notice. CanZE was showing 96.7% at 4,300 miles after 1 year. I called Renault customer services a few weeks before my first service, told them I was losing range and asked if the car needed the BMS update. They said yes and asked my local dealer to apply the update during the first annual service. They also installed the updates needed to enable the energy info screen.

I read somewhere on this forum that SOH can vary slightly with temperature. This is not something I can confirm but, if it's true, you may not be losing SOH as quickly as you fear. Also, as I understand it, the BMS issue is just that it miscalculates battery capacity, so it thinks the battery has less capacity than it does and caps the maximum charge at a lower level. I don't think it harms the battery. When the BMS update was applied to my nearly fully charged car, it looked like I "lost" 3% charge - but that was really just the car regaining the ability to take an extra 3% charge.

 

[donald]

Sorry, run this by me again.

Why do you need Can ZE ( a piece of unapproved reverse engineering that gives numbers no-one really know for sure what they mean) to diagnose that there is a software update due?

How are those two things remotely related?

@Dave Barr , @Mo1 , can you please explain this, if not @Little_discourage ?

I've been at this game long enough to know that if you have the means to monitor to the nth degree you do so until you chew your nails short and struggle sleeping. The numbers that come out of the CAN bus can be random number generators at times, they are reversed engineered snap shots of data that may or may not relate to something real, best not to watch all of those numbers zooming by day-by-day. Instead, wait until you actually need to look for something.

It can be a fun spectator sport to watch, and long term monitoring tool, but can't be relied on for day-to-day analysis.

I think @yoh-there might back me up on this?

 

[Little_discourage]

Sorry, run this by me again.

Why do you need Can ZE ( a piece of unapproved reverse engineering that gives numbers no-one really know for sure what they mean) to diagnose that there is a software update due?

How are those two things remotely related?

Because plumetting SOH indicates that you need the BMS update and my garage wouldn't believe me about the need for the BMS update until I explained the plummeting SOH figures.

 

[donald]

Because plumetting SOH indicates that you need the BMS update and my garage wouldn't believe me about the need for the BMS update until I explained the plummeting SOH figures.

If there is a BMS update, why would they question applying the update!?

Generally speaking, that is what 'updates' are for; to 'update' something!

I suggest this is nothing to do with CanZE and everything to do with you making contact with a professional and reliable dealer.

Have you tried calling DSG Morecambe?

 

[Mo1]

I've been at this game long enough to know that if you have the means to monitor to the nth degree you do so until you chew your nails short and struggle sleeping.

If seeing this info causes you to chew your nails short and struggle sleeping then yes its wise for you to steer clear.

I have used Canze on the three Zoe's I have owned and found the information generated very informative and useful as I am sure many other users have.

Canze is also useful to check charge rates so you know when to move on as the charge rates drop since Zoe does not show that on its displays.

 

[MackScania]

I wanted to use it specifically to see if it did have the BMS update as I had read about it on the earlier model ZE50's which I have. I'm just trying to get an idea of other peoples experiences and I appreciate everyone's feedback. Based on the control software numbers and from what others have said I do think it needs the BMS update and I will speak to a dealer during the week to get it installed.

Cheers

 

[yoh-there]

Oh gosh.

• CanZE will reliably tell you the LBC (BMS) firmware version numbers.
• There are other places on the internet where you can find tons of people contributing their firmware version numbers in the wild and when and why they were applied.
• SOH is NOT calculated by CanZE. It is taken from the LBC and is therefor "the truth" as far as it can get.
• There ARE a few fields that are calculated, i.e. DC power (A*V) and the slowly averaging consumption graph.

Other random comments:

• Totally independent of the tool used, ie CanZE or the dealer's CLIP tool), I argue that the SOH (as computed by the LBC, just making sure everybody has that loud and clear) is "just a number". It is usually defined as battery capacity in Ah (NOT in kWh) related to it's nominal Ah capacity, BUT, you can only know the Ah capacity if you do a full charge cycle. Something that almost no car ever experiences. However, the LBC can calculate "a" SOH more reliably if you run your car from 100% to as low as you dare. The above is also repeated on this very forum many, many times and not just by me. I am not complaining, but it would be nice if, aaahhh never mind
  
• To @MackScania
  • ad 1: can't be sure as I do not own a ZE50 model, but there have been "issues" so I would advice to have the update applied. Reason it is not free is it takes quite a bit of time and if Renault deems there is no problem, the dealer won't be reimbursed. So make sure you use magic words like "low range, long charging times" etc, and NOT "old firmware"
  • ad 2: probably not
  • ad 3: absolutely not
• It makes for mildly amusing reading to occasionally click on "view" when the forum indicates blocked content when time is plenty available

 

[yoh-there]

@MackScania
I think this is what you are looking for

ZOE FIRMWARE Übersicht Firmwarestand - Bearbeitungsstand 20210521.pdf

Kopie von Q210 l,, ,aktuelle SW Ver.,watzinger,psa,Dilbert,Elektrolurch,Mittelhesse,Mittelhesse,Mittelhesse,lingley,borg24,Zoe1114,slowdown,TomTomZoe,zoenms,tyman,PavelCoast,HawkEy3,Berndte Datum,30.11.2017,08.02.2017,09.02.2017,19.02.2017,14.02.2017,07.03.2018,17.12.2020,15.02.2017,16.02.2017,...

docs.google.com

 

[donald]

If seeing this info causes you to chew your nails short and struggle sleeping then yes its wise for you to steer clear.

I have used Canze on the three Zoe's I have owned and found the information generated very informative and useful as I am sure many other users have.

Canze is also useful to check charge rates so you know when to move on as the charge rates drop since Zoe does not show that on its displays.

OK, on the latter point, but why don't you just look at the charger to monitor the charge rate? All the rapids I have ever seen display the charge rate, legibly from the driver seat.

It feels to me that you're trying your best to deliberately misunderstanding me on the other points.

My point is that if you get some data from monitoring your car that you don't like the look of, but your car is running fine, then you are only going to get worried about it, then use that monitoring more and more to reinforce your worry. Still while the car is running fine.

What I said is confirmed here so you can take note; SOH is not reliably indicated, so the OPs original concern are based on something that is not a reliable indicator. Evidently, they are getting more and more concerned about something that is not a reliable indicator while their car is running fine, this was my point which I think you might've knowingly misconstrued.

If there are updates and a dongle and CanZE are the means to check if the updates are applied, sure, go right ahead, of course, THAT is what such gadgets are for, to do checks like that.

I have seen a number of owners here stress themselves for weeks to months over a perception of a degrading battery when in fact nothing was wrong. My point was that checking if you have an update is not connected with monitoring a value grabbed from the CAN of semi-relevance to SOH.

 

[Mo1]

OK, on the latter point, but why don't you just look at the charger to monitor the charge rate? All the rapids I have ever seen display the charge rate, legibly from the driver seat.

It feels to me that you're trying your best to deliberately misunderstanding me on the other points.

My point is that if you get some data from monitoring your car that you don't like the look of, but your car is running fine, then you are only going to get worried about it, then use that monitoring more and more to reinforce your worry. Still while the car is running fine.

What I said is confirmed here so you can take note; SOH is not reliably indicated, so the OPs original concern are based on something that is not a reliable indicator. Evidently, they are getting more and more concerned about something that is not a reliable indicator while their car is running fine, this was my point which I think you might've knowingly misconstrued.

If there are updates and a dongle and CanZE are the means to check if the updates are applied, sure, go right ahead, of course, THAT is what such gadgets are for, to do checks like that.

I have seen a number of owners here stress themselves for weeks to months over a perception of a degrading battery when in fact nothing was wrong. My point was that checking if you have an update is not connected with monitoring a value grabbed from the CAN of semi-relevance to SOH.

Maybe the type of chargers you use do show charge rates, the CPS network chargers mostly do not.
I now have an iD3 which thankfully does show charge rates.

Not reliable you say, well though I did not stress for weeks to months on my battery SOH I did check when I saw several reports of dropping levels in the Zoe then used the data to check software before requesting the dealer to update.
I think if folk are going to stress for weeks and months, bite their nails and are losing sleep they would be best to stick to ice until they have to change to electric, there should be less of these type of concerns with EVs in years to come.

 

[donald]

Maybe the type of chargers you use do show charge rates, the CPS network chargers mostly do not.

OK, if you say so. Some don't show 'power' but current instead, but I have never seen one that does neither.

I think if folk are going to stress for weeks and months, bite their nails and are losing sleep they would be best to stick to ice until they have to change to electric, there should be less of these type of concerns with EVs in years to come.

A lot of people should be kept in ICE, they are going to ruin the whole EV mission.

I actually trust and hope that legislation will actually see sense in 2030 and it will stipulate something like, for example, a minimum of 90% of car sales per manufacturer must be zero emission, up to 10% can be alternative fuelled, and up to 5% can be pure ICE.

It is not sensible to use a screwdriver when a hammer is needed. Different tools for different jobs.

 

[MackScania]

I really just wanted some information. Wasn't expecting to get my wrists slapped. People don't learn until they do/experience it. I am happy that there is nothing more to worry about and I will go about my day in peace.

 

[donald]

I really just wanted some information. Wasn't expecting to get my wrists slapped. People don't learn until they do/experience it. I am happy that there is nothing more to worry about and I will go about my day in peace.

Honestly, for myself can't speak for others, I was not trying to slap any wrists and emphasised it as warm friendly advice, and that wasn't sarcastic.

I have done that and been there myself. I have actually caused myself problems, and actually ended up damaging a battery, by over-thinking how a battery is performing, rather than just getting on and using it. I do actually make comments out of experience hoping they will help, not out of ass.

Happy driving!

 

[yoh-there]

@Mo1 now I hate you

 

[MackScania]

Clearly nothing wrong with the battery. Mixture of town and a bit of motorway from 100% to 2% without eco mode (except for the last 3%). Straight onto charge

And funnily enough, the so called SOH of the battery has increased up to to 92% again (last time I'll even bother looking at that figure @donald )