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Zoe Devotee
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Discussion Starter #1
So this was widely discussed a while back that the DC implementation isn't the greatest.

I was all for CCS, but wasn't impressed with the srlt testing speed. Seems its pretty much prudent to just stick with up to 22kW as its only 10-15% slower over the course of a charge. 🤷‍♂️

Now it seems Fastned agree.

 

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Of course, the difference being that in Germany (where the article mentions is the cost of CCS worth the money) 3-phase is the norm, whereas 3 phase in the UK is rare. I know of only two 22kW charging posts within my area, one of which is almost always out of action.

I think for the UK, CCS will be very useful for the number of places one can charge, rather than for any time savings, and lets face it, 47kW charging, saving 10-15% in time over 22kW charging, is worth having.

I would tend to agree with the article that the reason is to protect the battery. To get 52kWh packed into the same space as the original 22kWh battery has to put limitations on cooling.
 

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Renault ZOE R135 ZE50 GTLine July 2020 (Sold: R90 ZE40 i Dynamic Nav June 2017)
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Another way of looking at it is that you get an average of 40kW charging from 10% to 60% on a 50kW DC charger. So 25 kWh (around 100 miles) in about 40 minutes. To put the same mileage into my ZE40 on a 22kW AC charger takes about twice as long.
 

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Seems at odds with Fastneds info on the EV-database page.
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No mention of pack temperature on either of those reports, so that's likely the reason for variation?
 

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had an R240, got an R90, might get a ZE50
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Loads of new chargers going in without 22kW AC provision, many DC only.. I’ll happily take 46kW CCS over 22kW AC anytime I’m on a long journey.
l'd rather have both AC and DC fast charge available when I'm doing a long journey.

Best option
A Tesla and their superb infrastructure.

Next best option
Ability to use both AC and DC fast charging, that's a Zoe ZE50.

Personally I'm not too bothered about charging that much above 22kW, but I do recognise higher rates are necessary to improve utilisation of chargers. I would still specify CCS though.
 

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Zoe Devotee
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Discussion Starter #8
To be fair, I would trust anything from the EV-Database page.
 

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l'd rather have both AC and DC fast charge available when I'm doing a long journey.

Best option
A Tesla and their superb infrastructure.

Next best option
Ability to use both AC and DC fast charging, that's a Zoe ZE50.

Personally I'm not too bothered about charging that much above 22kW, but I do recognise higher rates are necessary to improve utilisation of chargers. I would still specify CCS though.
Not saying I don't want 22kW on the Zoe, it's great.. Just pleased to know that when our ZE50 arrives (its in Southampton at the import centre at the moment), we'll be able to do longer journeys with the option of CCS DC charging - it'll make a reasonable time difference over the 22kW max we've had for the last four years.
 

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You get close to 22kW if the battery is warm and reasonably low SOC, but it holds that up to around 90%. In winter without a long drive I’ve had around 10-12kW speed on a 22kW charger. I suspect we’ll see low DC rates when the battery is cold too.
 

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worth nothing that most 22kw chargers dont charge at 22kw. last time i hooked to one at 30-40% SOC, i charged at about 14-15kw
 

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Renault ZOE R135 ZE50 GTLine July 2020 (Sold: R90 ZE40 i Dynamic Nav June 2017)
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worth nothing that most 22kw chargers dont charge at 22kw. last time i hooked to one at 30-40% SOC, i charged at about 14-15kw
It should be very rare for it to be the 3 phase 22kW EVSE limiting the charge rate. It's not a charger. Just an intelligent switch that checks there's a car there and then closes the contacts on all three phases. It could signal that a lower charge was available, but that would only be if the wiring to it was inadequate, which would be strange. It's then up to the car to take what it can up to 22kW. So your low charge rate was probably due to a cold battery.
 

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You need a warm battery and low state of charge on a ZE40 to get 21kWh out of a 44 kWh AC charger, fastest I've seen during winter. Summer doesn't seem to affect it as badly but haven't tested it yet, only got the dongle in autumn last year for CanZe.
 

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Worth noting that 22kW AC = ~20kW into the battery after conversion losses and 46kW DC = ~46kW into the battery as there is no conversion required.
 

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worth nothing that most 22kw chargers dont charge at 22kw. last time i hooked to one at 30-40% SOC, i charged at about 14-15kw
I've never had a problem with the charge speed in my R110 on 22kW posts. As other have mentioned, the key is to have a warm battery and a low SoC, I typically only use a 22kW post when I'm on a long journey so would have already driven ~125 miles which warms up the pack nicely. These are my last few rapid charges, seem to be able to charge about 55% in 1 hour.

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Zoe Devotee
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Discussion Starter #20
Same for aQ210: +40kW. That is excellent considering the battery's capacity is only 22 kWh.
Yup Q210 seemed to the peak for Zoe when it comes to rapid charging. Pre-BMS you would easily see 1kW less than charger capacity. So if the charger could do 43kW on AC you would see 42kW. Post BMS that was more like 40kW max, which was still pretty great. But sadly lower is better with the ZE50, I'm sure someone will come argue that slower is better but really its not. A peak of 46kW on the face of it sounds better but when its actually more like 36kW average that's pretty poor. And the fact remains that most "buyers" (PCP) will just opt for 22kW AC charging because they don't do long trips very often will mean very long stops. As @rbrt points out, 100miles in close to an hour and a half might be ok for some but most rapids have a time limit before overstay of 60mins so you'll be rushing out to move stop a session and start another to avoid overstay fees and you might not make friends if their is another person queuing to charge.
 
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