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Embracing the GTE revolution in Golf GTE
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Discussion Starter #1
Just saw this on my news feed and thought t was interesting.

How an electric car can make you money

I thought the only cars that could do V2G were the new Nissan Leaf's.

If this is the case then would be interesting if any of the UK companies could offer it.
 

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Just saw this on my news feed and thought t was interesting.

How an electric car can make you money

I thought the only cars that could do V2G were the new Nissan Leaf's.

If this is the case then would be interesting if any of the UK companies could offer it.
This is a trial with Renault, the Zoe's are especially adapted to do bi-directional charging. Currently only CHAdeMO vehicles can do it out of the box.

Money wise, if you were to charge overnight at 5p/kWh then sell back when its 15p/kWh, theres an opportunity to make some money, but not a great deal. Might cover a PCP payment or something on the cash saved, but then you have to also drive the car as well, so need as much charge as possible.

I more envisage domestic V2G as more V2H combined with solar and a battery. V2G would work amazingly with fleets though where there's 10/20/30+ EVs all sitting around idle overnight...
 

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Embracing the GTE revolution in Golf GTE
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I just think it is interesting to see that other cars are being tested. I am very keen to take part in V2G as m personal car will be idle 5 days out of 7 so if can be charged during the night and then utilised as a battery to feed back into the grid at peak times.

I will hopefully be part if the Octopus V2G trial starting soon.
 

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This is a trial with Renault, the Zoe's are especially adapted to do bi-directional charging. Currently only CHAdeMO vehicles can do it out of the box.
I am told the only leaf that can do it is the leaf2.0, whilst the CHAdeMO connector supports it, That's not enough - the car has to be compatable too.

Not sure I would do this with any car I own though TBH.
 

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I am told the only leaf that can do it is the leaf2.0, whilst the CHAdeMO connector supports it, That's not enough - the car has to be compatable too.

Not sure I would do this with any car I own though TBH.
I’ve seen an Outlander PHEV doing V2G, and it’s any Leaf from 2013 onwards. Not sure about the Soul EV or Tesla’s using a CHAdeMO adapter.

University of Warwick have proven that V2G can actually be better for the battery health as you are cycling smaller amounts of charge and discharge. Trying to get warranty approval is a pain, which is odd considering Nissan harps on about their EV/home ecosystem!


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I did not know the leaf from 2013 could do it. I guess thats better for people who want to do it I guess. I'm still not convinced about any additional cycling being better for the battery long term though. I have the opinion that it should be the service provider who should balance the grid with their own batteries. YMMV of course.
 

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Co-author of CanZE. Q210 nov 2013
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A couple of ZOEs are doing it in a trial in the city of Utrecht. AC based and the cars are modified. Renault has an interesting patent using the same trick with the motor coils for inverting back to the grid.
 

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As the UK peak electricity demand is in winter evening when people get home from work and cook etc, it makes sence using some of the remaining charge in their car to reduce this demand. But it does not work well in a small battery EV, as there is unlikely to be enough charge to both blance peak demand and go out in the evening. However it starts getting interesting with large battery EV, when most cars could provide a few kwh at peak time without going below 30% charge.

Think if you were paying 5p per unit overnight, but 25p between 5pm and 7pm, would you not wish to use your EV to boil the kettle?
 

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As the UK peak electricity demand is in winter evening when people get home from work and cook etc, it makes sence using some of the remaining charge in their car to reduce this demand. But it does not work well in a small battery EV, as there is unlikely to be enough charge to both blance peak demand and go out in the evening. However it starts getting interesting with large battery EV, when most cars could provide a few kwh at peak time without going below 30% charge.

Think if you were paying 5p per unit overnight, but 25p between 5pm and 7pm, would you not wish to use your EV to boil the kettle?
Exactly that. I don’t envisage V2G at home being a money making exercise, rather a money saving exercise, in that you would use left over juice in your EV to power your home before cheap tariffs kick in overnight to charge it back up for the next day.


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Co-author of CanZE. Q210 nov 2013
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I think the total reverse to be honest. With growing EV market, the only thing to avoid is that evening peak and that's the easiest thing to do (timer low end, smart charging high end). Right now, the kettle can be fired up too, so that can't be the problem.

The huge difference between night and day tariff makes things not easier for net balancing and sustainable energy sources. It neatly supports the big, traditional coal and nuclear plants. In California (yes I know, slightly different sunshine profile), the biggest problem is the duck curve.

EV'S should be charging in the daytime from PV on office roofs and local PV farms.

In my country, while as an individual I'd like to pay 5p at night, difference between day and night rate is about 1 penny per kWh (with massively higher electricity prices overall BTW). In the grand scheme, not a bad thing really.

Feed-in, at least for the foreseeable future is a complex solution for a hardly-existing problem.

IMHO

Added: the above goes for domestic energy and network usage. Industrial energy use has a totally different dynamic.
 

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On the face of it V2G looks to be an attractive option, but I thought that deep charging cycles had an adverse effect on long-term battery life. Is Renault still standing by the battery warranty?
Not too sure about Renault. I can’t imagine they’d have made an announcement about warranty as the project the OP posted is very much an R&D feasibility study.

I know all V2G projects in the UK are struggling to get any warranty confirmation from manufacturers. Nissan in particular require full charge profiles and cycles to be sent to Japan (where they warrant 5kWh discharge per day).

Indra and OVO declined to comment when I asked at Fully Charged Live. (Granted I might not have been asking the right people)



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but I thought that deep charging cycles had an adverse effect on long-term battery life
On a long range EV, you can cover the peak time evening demand of most homes without deep cycles of the battery. It could for example be: arrive home at 50%, use 10% for the home, recharge to 70% overnight. (charge to 100% only for long trips)

@yoh-there In the UK the peak demand is on cold winter evenings, and we have many power stations that must be kept operational so as to cope with that peak. As most power demand is in winter and solor PV give little output in a UK winter, it does not help advoid the cost of having these power stations.
 

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Co-author of CanZE. Q210 nov 2013
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@ringi My weather is almost exactly the same as yours ;-) Just the little pond in between, hehe. Overall electricity demand on a winter day here (so that includes industry) is not so much the evenings, but over the day. If a bump in the evening, it's small.

Still, the extra load from EVs should, IMHO, come from the "unreliable renewables" (quotes very much intended). Batteries are great for exactly that. Cheap night power is, imho a bad solution. And V2G is, again IMHO such an edge case, just shaving off a bit of a domestic peak.

Of course I can be totally wrong. I just am far from convinced.
 

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@ringi My weather is almost exactly the same as yours ;-) Just the little pond in between, hehe. Overall electricity demand on a winter day here (so that includes industry) is not so much the evenings, but over the day. If a bump in the evening, it's small.

Still, the extra load from EVs should, IMHO, come from the "unreliable renewables" (quotes very much intended). Batteries are great for exactly that. Cheap night power is, imho a bad solution. And V2G is, again IMHO such an edge case, just shaving off a bit of a domestic peak.

Of course I can be totally wrong. I just am far from convinced.
I agree. Especially as V2G at the moment is very cost prohibitive, mainly because it’s DC so all the inverter and electronics have to be off board on the charger. AC V2G, like Renault are doing, is a different proposition.


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The "of board" inverter etc is only expensive as it is not mass market. But until we get a mass macket EV with a large enough battery there will not be enough demand to make V2G cost effective. There are also not enough EV to make it worthwhile to the national grid yet.

Tesla will not surport V2G any time soon, as it does not make sence in their home macket.
 

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Co-author of CanZE. Q210 nov 2013
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A cleverly designed charger will not need much extra components to become an inverter. That is exactly what Renault did with the experiment in Utrecht. They have an interesting patent, taking the motor-in-the-charger-loop a step further.

I don't see DC ever coming to the home base, even if both the car battery as well as PV is DC. It's a nice theoretical exercise but IMHO futile. so if we are pursuing V2G/V2H (again, which I argue against), the car will need to provide the inverter, and it won't be hard to do given the relatively low power levels involved in home charging (3-7 kW max for almost all cars on AC, except ZOE). But will OEMs expose themselves? I doubt it.

As said above, I see more in smart charging, taking away at least half of the V2G business case for far less than half of the cost. And we haven't even started about totally different battery parameters for home storage versus mobile use.

But as said it's serious forward looking and I could be way off. Different legislation between countries can have a profound effect too.
 

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@ringi My weather is almost exactly the same as yours ;-) Just the little pond in between, hehe. Overall electricity demand on a winter day here (so that includes industry) is not so much the evenings, but over the day. If a bump in the evening, it's small.

Still, the extra load from EVs should, IMHO, come from the "unreliable renewables" (quotes very much intended). Batteries are great for exactly that. Cheap night power is, imho a bad solution. And V2G is, again IMHO such an edge case, just shaving off a bit of a domestic peak.

Of course I can be totally wrong. I just am far from convinced.
The giant peaks in the UK used to be because a huge percentage of the population would watch the same soaps. When they finished, they would all put the kettle on...
With the advent of more choice, easy access to TV recorders and on-demand, this peak isn't really there anymore.
Have a look at Live monitoring of the UK electricity National Grid
 

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Co-author of CanZE. Q210 nov 2013
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Hahaha, thank you for a good laugh. Not that I doubt it in the least. Even more, probably exactly the same here. Slightly off topic......

I visited the local water plant the other day. The final pumping stage consisted of 3 massive and 1 tiny pump. The latter for the nights with the occasional pee-er, the whole shebang for the mid-break of "very important" soccer matches!

Edit: that is a neat website
 

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I've used it for a while to check the best time to charge. Since they changed the colour scheme, a benefit of solar generation (that I hadn't appreciated) has become more apparent. You can see that solar generation is highly correlated with demand. Not at all surprising, as people use more energy when they are active in daylight! But in the summer months we've already reached the stage in the UK where solar generation is adding sufficient output to cope with most of the increase demand in daylight hours! This is a big step.
 
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