Never mind blind people. I have had full sighted ones suddenly walk onto the road in front of me.

I have only just discovered that my Leafs 'Noise' can be switched off, not that it's all that loud.

 

I understand their concern, but I'm very dubious about the report. I'd like to see More or Less take a look at their "electric cars 40% more likely to have a collision with a pedestrian" statistic.

It would seem sensible for cars to make a noise in urban areas, but then should it apply to pushbikes too? Either way I think it would have to be user selectable - what shall I be today, small block V8 or ice cream van?

 

I understand their concern, but I'm very dubious about the report. I'd like to see More or Less take a look at their "electric cars 40% more likely to have a collision with a pedestrian" statistic.

It would seem sensible for cars to make a noise in urban areas, but then should it apply to pushbikes too? Either way I think it would have to be user selectable - what shall I be today, small block V8 or ice cream van?

Not so sure about ice cream van. When he comes down our road the doors are flung open and people rush out - mainly grown ups

 

Hmm, so how many people have been ploughed down by a slow moving electric car? I don't recall seeing the news articles about it?

I seem to have escaped childhood without being run down by the electric milk floats every morning too.

Once an electric car is moving over about 10 MPH the 4 lumps of rubber (one in each corner to ensure all round surround sound) slapping the road and rebounding from potholes are as loud as any other car on the road and very noticeable. As said above, pushbikes are quieter.

Edit - Zoe has a selectable "voice" or pedestrian horn which plays until 18 MPH. I turn it off most of the time (& still haven't run down dozens of pedestrians, pets etc). Why is it necessary to always shatter the peace & quiet in the world nowadays?

 

This is exactly the type of thing that we need the @EVDA-UK to get involved in. Without it there is going to be no resistance to this kind of campaigning and they will win.

 

I can confirm our Chair and Liasons will be looking into this matter as a matter of course and we will update accordinly.

 

I caught only a snippet of a news story on Radio 4's PM this evening about how electric cars are too quiet for blind people to hear.

A bit of Googling shows that Guide Dogs for the Blind are campaigning for electric cars to be noisier.

Here's the link

PM, BBC Radio 4 - PM, 29/06/2015 from @bbcradio4 via @BBCiPlayerRadio

The article starts 0:44:44 into the programme.

imo what a load of old baloney..
as i have had for years and years people just stepping out on me not even looking out for ev .s
but also there are always people just walking out on me with earphone and head phones aswell and if thats not enough thery are on there phone .
so weather you are genially deaf.....

or want to be deaf with music blaring into your earphones while on the phone how stupid i say .
i am / try to be awere all the time AND IN my case just pretend that everyone carnt hear you so makes for a more carfull driver..
hope we are all listnering so just remember noone can hear us so be extra carfull.
simples..

otley

 

Some blind people may have a level of independence in crossing roads which in turn is dependent on hearing approaching vehicles. In some places peddle bike traffic is negligable. I suspect they fear this walk-to-the-shops-unaided freedom is threatened by very quiet cars, hence the campaign. 40% figure sounds bogus to me though, and I will drop "more or less" an email...!

 

I think you have put your finger on it. To say that there have been few if any accidents caused by this misses the point. It is about ensuring that blind people can feel confident in their continuing independence. This depends as much as on the perceived logic that there are silent (and very heavy) killers cruising around as on the actual statistics. I too drive very carefully whenever I see pedestrians or (more often) cyclists in front of me, but it is difficult to see how we can completely reassure visually impaired people as long as this perception remains.

 

o yeh there are boat loads of carbon fiber bikes out there ok and normal bikes. and un normal people on some of these bikes .
and when the bike get up to spead i/e 20+ dont even think about stopping distance...
so this is dead in the water ..
so to recap electric car. = sensable person behind the wheel i would like to think .
so the can make a judgment on what they see thus if they make a mistake insurance / court / imprisonment ..
simple
but what we could have a blanket thingey if we want to be nanny state is
so blanket every one that has a ev and electric 4 wheeler and 3 wheeler and of course all bikes have to have a noise making machine .
only if they havent been riding continuasley for under a year so under a year then noise over a year no noise.
and all bike have to pay £10 per year and wear high vis and helmit as standard law..
and all dogs have to have a licence .
and no to dangerous dogs / muzzled......
.
just a thought arnt deaf and blind people asking for it been out on there own ..
anyway where the nanny in that thats just plain silly?????

just thought i would give you guys a bone to chew on .
otley

 

just a thought arnt deaf and blind people asking for it been out on there own ..
anyway where the nanny in that thats just plain silly?????

Why punish people whose senses are impaired through no fault of their own by putting them under house arrest as well? The rest of us should take whatever measures we need to to make it possible for them to be as independent as ourselves. The question is, does this include noise generators on EVs?

 

Mobility scooters should be the first things fitted with noisemakers and possibly flashing beacons too.

 

Interestingly enough I have been mown down by an electric vehicle. It was granny mobility scooter. They did creep up on me, I did hear them but they aimed at me as I tried to dodge them. They then run over my foot. Bloody painful. Then the driver person shouted (as they burnt off into the distance with me massaging my foot) "get out of my way you ****" (I think it was an anglosaxon word for female anatomy). I was a tad taken aback. I think that person probably needed a man in front with a flag let alone some noise making device. And probably more mood stabilising medicines. Point is that any fool can injure you on the road, it's more to do with behaviour than the vehicle type.

 

I would have to agree. The fact that cars have always made noise does not mean that they HAVE always to make noise.

While there are a number of blind people to whom an ill-driven EV poses a marginally higher risk than an ill-driven petrol or diesel car there are also people sensitive to noise (see above). It is also known that noise is a stress inducer with adverse health implications of its own.

While Guide Dogs are right to highlight this point they are wrong to campaign that cars should be noisier. They would be much better to campaign that the built environment be more blind-sensitive in general with, for example at Junctions and approaching crossings small rumble strips to both warn of approaching traffic and draw the attention of a driver to a possible danger.

 

I'm pretty sensitive to high pitch tones even at my age and at cruising speeds around here EVs when they whine seem just as load as anything other than old, noisy dirty cars or motorbikes going too fast. You here the whine, you hear the tyres, you hear the general motion/commotion. Most cars are very quiet in terms of engine noise now when going at slow speeds.

We have a poll on here, and also there was one conversation where I'm sure a story said someone was (perhaps nearly?) run over twice at the same spot by an EV, so the driver was apparently going to take it back. Can't find the story now, but there's no real evidence here.

Surely this is quite an easy one to study and solve in controlled conditions though. As a general rule though I agree totally that more noise does not mean better by default.

 

Also, if you have a guide dog, I'm pretty sure they'll be able t hear any vehicle before us humans, isn't that part of the point?!

 

As a result of reports I have read I went out and purchased a 'Bumper Box' of Pedestrian and other symbols to stick on the drivers door of my LEAF. In the way in which a fighter pilot of the 1940's registered 'Kills'. I have a variety including 'Little old Ladies', Small children, cyclists, mothers with pushchairs, New Forest ponies, Dogs. the Blind, Students with Headphones and even the fully able. It would appear from this broadcast that I now need some for People with limited hearing and their dogs.
My problem is that in 18 months I have not used any and have come to the conclusion that as I have so many I should sell some. Perhaps anyone who HAS a need of a sticker could contact me via this forum.

 

Here we go…

https://speakev.com/threads/radio-5-calling-evs-a-menace-to-pedestrians.7578/
https://speakev.com/threads/evs-are-dangerously-quiet-so-says-teacher.7019/

https://speakev.com/threads/quick-poll-have-you-run-over-more-people-driving-an-ev.1170/

 

I'm sure the BBC would have a collective blank look for the suggestion that hydrogen fuelled cars are just as much a silent killer, a deadly menace, a ticking timebomb, etc.

EVDA, please bring this up in any discussions you might have!

 

I think you'll find the Zoe (and most EVs) are louder than a new ford Fiesta econetic on over run slowing in the 30 zone.

The only cars you really hear coming, that are new, are diesels and the occasional VXR/ST

There is a blind chap lives in the same village as me, so far I have as yet not killed him, even though his dog likes to lead him into the road without looking for traffic.

 

I'd much rather they hammer this stuff out now than in 10/20 years when EVs are prolific as I'd rather avoid a spate of deaths or knee jerk legislation. I'm not an advocate of the precautionary principle, but there's no harm in doing some proper research now to avoid potential future problems.
The blind have adapted to life without sight and learned how to navigate in 'relative' safety. The introduction of EVs poses a new problem that could potentially be a hazard for them. Ignoring the tyre noise argument, being hit by a TMS or Outlander even at 5mph would be enough to break legs and relying on the driver to press the pedestrian horn may not be sufficient. Of course, any legislation would have to apply to the latest super quiet petrol cars, as well as mobility scooters.

On a positive note, it's a good indicator that electric vehicles are making enough of an impact (sorry) that these things need to be considered.

 

No body's even mentiond ear poping syndrome .!!!!!!!!!

This can even happen on the quietest petrol car never mind a chunky monkey diesel .....

But, no one has ever been in casualty A / E department with a electric car driving passt them
and popping there drum's.. NEVER HAPPENED
while ive been there..
And infact THE NEW FOMULAR -E
the spectators needed to wear ONLY ONE ear defender
so to say there is lot of money to be saved even by ear defender standards . ..
so,s to say not everything you hear is what you think it should be ...

otley

 

the spectators needed to wear ONLY ONE ear defender

LOL -- I take it you're referring to the free radios!

 

I have a pedestrian collision system, anyone know the best way to test it, I'm guessing that ploughing into a crowd of shoppers would be frowned upon

 

Every second weekend, outside Old Trafford from August to May. Suitable for repeat tests.

 

I read a report from Norway awhile back (can trace at the moment) that they have a sharp increase in people being run over by quiet ice vehicles as the populace have become accustomed to the numerous Leaf on their roads.

 

i could wipe the floor with a silly coment about making OUR great first .
form of transport ELECTRIC CAR on the road. with anybody who cars to listen..
but 1 thing that the traffic crossings have a a loud aduaible sound so deaf people know when its time to cross and for deaf people there is a added bit a motor yep moter spins a slightley gratted piece of metal near the yellow box
near where you whould press the button to cross this shaft is under the box with button on this .
..now gets the intresting facts FACTS imo..

not many people prefoundley or if you like stone deaf.. and partially blind .
or like steve wonder..
well this ratio to motor bikes totally out weaigh these people and there has been loads and
loads of people death thousands unfortunately FACT..
the manufacture isnt aloud to make the indicator on motorcyles relatively load or even load enough so that the rider can hear them or even have them get loader like on a lot of cars.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
say if you are doing 30 mph the in car its ok can hear the indicator ..
but soon as say you reach 60+ on petrol car he he then the indecators are slightley raised so you can hear them
But of course not too load that it would make a person trying to cross the road THINK the coast is clear....
but .
with Motorcycles they dont want to harm anybody's emotions so they die merraly in the back ground DONT they .

so's to say no deaf and no blind people where hurt juring the making of this thread,
but guess what another stastic. has died..

i know i will cut to the chase the bikes accidentally leave there indicators on COS THEY(carnt hear them.) ..........
i am the odd ocation a cyclist and have been riding scooters for 28+ years and electric scooters for over 15 years

so NOT mentiond ushally on some bends there are nice little shinny stainless steel 5" squire on the road surfice
and these gentley go to yes you guessed it aslight dome so if you was unfochanely come across this on a
say scooter in the rain good chanses you will have alittle slip and also in the same breath
thats of course you have any left if there is grit on these surfases . same again would happen.

to be honest i know there are dogy bikes out there BUT nobody want to see there loved one die like this ..
so common sense needs to over take a lot of things .
soz for spelling and dyslexia to the mix not good....
am half awake but this is a subject close to my hart.

aswell as the thought of modifing something so wonderfull as a ELECTRIC car that has been on the road well before petrol or deisel cars we are not going to budge on this one as

the oil giants killed the electric car but not again.....

otley

 

I take it from this that no one has ever been killed or seriously injured by an ICE vehicle of any description. The road casualty figures are obviously suicide victims that have been listening out for a vehicle to walk out in front of or insurance scams.
seriously in the 18 months of leaf ownership I haven't even hit a dumb pigeon. Yes the visually impaired might be worried but it is normally the arrogant driver's that are the problem not what they drive.
Most mornings I pass a blind man and his dog whilst on my Brompton whilst riding along a cycle lane, I always say good morning as a friendly way of announcing my speed and direction. Care and consideration is all that is required in most things in life.

 

I take it from this that no one has ever been killed or seriously injured by an ICE vehicle of any description. The road casualty figures are obviously suicide victims that have been listening out for a vehicle to walk out in front of or insurance scams.
seriously in the 18 months of leaf ownership I haven't even hit a dumb pigeon. Yes the visually impaired might be worried but it is normally the arrogant driver's that are the problem not what they drive.
Most mornings I pass a blind man and his dog whilst on my Brompton whilst riding along a cycle lane, I always say good morning as a friendly way of announcing my speed and direction. Care and consideration is all that is required in most things in life.

I hit a Pheasant, it ran across the road then turned round and tried to run back again, they really are dumb creatures.

 

Having done a lot of cycling I am fairly used to people walking out in front of me. In my experience blind or partially sighted people do it less so because they tend to pause and position themselves in a way that makes it obvious what they are doing so if you are paying attention they are easy to spot.

Although having just bought a Leaf I am already considering a people catcher modification in case this proves to be a problem:

 

Having done a lot of cycling I am fairly used to people walking out in front of me. In my experience blind or partially sighted people do it less so because they tend to pause and position themselves in a way that makes it obvious what they are doing so if you are paying attention they are easy to spot.

Although having just bought a Leaf I am already considering a people catcher modification in case this proves to be a problem:

Interestingly I believe there were huge numbers of pedestrian casualties in the early days of motoring (when cars were somewhat noisier than even today's ICEs). In the U.S. the attempt to fix the problem was to make roads out of bounds to pedestrians with the introduction of the new crime of jay-walking...

 

Sorry, no body have mentioned how many ( blind or deaf ) people have been killed .
by electric cars ..
think that it might be ( THREE ) . and not too shoure infact that they where deaf or blind.???

i would expect that they where using undue care and attention.. in there case ..
and in england alone pertol and diesel cars was ONE HUNDREAD AND FIFTY THOUSAND PEOPLE .

SO i am gonna do rough figures in the deaths by cars .
sofar 50, million people dead..
and with Electric cars not great i know but ( THREE ) that we are awere of there might be the odd rodent .

but think we have a little more to go i know to iradicate the deaths .
i am thinking of making the cruse control work at 5 mph any more than that is
shear lunacy dont you know ..

oyeh did i mention 50 million deaths and thats not accounting the people on cyclistes
and people with breathing probblem atributed to all the toxins and chemicals the engins spew out ....
and deaths that are going to be caused buy engins ..

so think that we would be looking at more like 200, MILLIONS DEATHS +

otley

 

As the person who started this thread I guess I should mention that my dad was totally blind. One of the things that really annoyed him as he got older was being unable to hear bicycles as they came up behind him; he wished that people would use their bells more.

It seems to me that technology and education can help. Instead of installing Hawkwind audio generators in EV's how about installing mandatory collision avoidance auto braking linked up to big parps on the horn.

One thing that my dad's guide dogs always did was to look left and right before crossing the road, and they are trained to not walk out even if the owner says too if a car is coming. A dog's hearing is massively more sensitive than a human's and they'd easily here an EV coming, on top of seeing it.

As for the 40% miss likely to be hit by an EV statistic, I raise my hand and cry BS!