[sidehaas]

I'm averaging 4.1 m/kWh in my ID3 so these numbers feel low to me.

The local on street chargers are £0.40kWh off peak (Char.gy)and I have nearby fast charge at £0.50 (Instavolt) or even £0.36 if I go to Tesla at off peak hours.

Problem is, if you don't know where and when to charge or you don't have these cheaper options nearby you can easily be paying £0.80.

Oh and Ubitricity can do one with their £0.76 for 5kW chargers.

Ubitricity seem to be 57p/kwh in Liverpool via electroverse. Less if you get a discount for Octopus being your home energy supplier, but obviously most people without home charging won't have that.

 

[ruilvo]

I've done the math for my particular car. A Kona, about 16kWh/100km. Previously I had a VW Polo gasoline, about 6.5l/100km. For the Kona to break even with the Polo, I'd have to pay about 0.69€/kWh. At home I pay 0.11€/kWh. Even considering charging losses and the fact I don't always charge at night, let's say 15 cents / kWh. Less than 25% of what it cost me to drive before. Now, on public chargers. Many of them are expensive around here. Here the tradition is to also pay a fee per minute, not only per kWh, so that makes the math a bit more complicated. Tesla is one of the cheapest ones and it's like 40 cent/kWh during the day (no time fee). So charging outside is definitely comparable to gas, and sometimes more expensive than diesel.

 

[tickedon]

Ok, let’s look at the total cost. You can buy a used Kamiq or Renault Captur for £5,000, and you don’t have a service plan. In that case, the service plan for your EV costs £12.75 more per month compared to an ICE. Plus, leasing is £400 more per month, or £4,800 per year.

Financially the most cost-effective option is to buy a used ICE in good condition and keep it running, you’ll probably be able to drive it for a few years, then replace it. You’ll have a range of 800+ km on a single tank, and you can refuel in a few minutes.

EVs simply can’t compete here, there’s no EV equivalent to, say, a Captur dCi that you can buy for £5,000 and drive for several years with minimal costs.

But that wasn’t the point, I was talking about the charging costs of an EV on a trip.

Cheapest Kamiq on AutoTrader is £6795, and next one is £8495 - so you aren't buying one of those for £5k...

There are however plenty of Leaf's, Zoe's, Soul's, i3's etc. all around and just above the £5k mark. Depending on the types of journey you do, they could absolutely be cheaper than an ICE - there's just as much likely to go wrong and need maintenance on a cheap ICE as there is a cheap EV. Most of these small cars also aren't doing 800km on a single tank....

 

[Blanik]

how much are those local charging points per kWh? are they reliable, or sometimes you go there and they don't work or someone else is using them?

Local DC is open 24 hrs, 55p/kwh, and bookable so no queues.

When i was running a PHEV I worked on 50p/kwh equaled petrol cost.

For the etron the q7 petrol version returns about 25mpg, so that would make it about 25p/mile. Electric at a pessimistic 2.5m/kwh is 22p/m @55p/kwh so public charging still cheaper than petrol.

 

[Fran K]

Cheapest Kamiq on AutoTrader is £6795, and next one is £8495 - so you aren't buying one of those for £5k...

There are however plenty of Leaf's, Zoe's, Soul's, i3's etc. all around and just above the £5k mark. Depending on the types of journey you do, they could absolutely be cheaper than an ICE - there's just as much likely to go wrong and need maintenance on a cheap ICE as there is a cheap EV. Most of these small cars also aren't doing 800km on a single tank....

I drove a Captur dCi, it would show over 800 km (500mi) of range, then you refill it in 2 minutes and have another 800 km.

Renault Captur 4x4 1.5 dCi (90bhp) Iconic Nav 5d Auto specs & dimensions

Find all the key specs about the Renault Captur 1.5 dCi (90bhp) Iconic Nav 5d Auto from fuel efficiency and top speed, to running costs, dimensions data and lots more

www.parkers.co.uk

• 1.5 dCi (90 bhp):
  This engine provided around 78.5 mpg in older models and offered a range of approximately 732 miles on a single tank.
  
  
• 1.5 dCi (110 bhp):
  A more powerful option, this engine achieved about 76.4 mpg with an estimated range of 752 miles per tank in the previous generation models.

What range does a Leaf or Zoe for £5k have? Which EV would you recommend for £5k that has a real range of at least 300mi or 500 km?

The Captur easily does 400+ miles/650km on "one charge" in winter if you drive it at 70 mph on the motorway.

Feel free to include links to EVs that can actually do that.

Btw., the standard Renault Zoe with the 22kWh battery does not have DC fast charging.

 

[Xinix]

I took an Ionity subscription for my trip through Spain / France / Switzerland / Italy. A back-of-the-envelope calculation shows that it was around 30% cheaper than it would have been in a similar sized petrol car.

I think subscription plans for local chargers are the way forward. First, build out the infrastructure and then offer subscription plans to local residents. Could even be done on a per-street basis, e.g. you are entitled to an X% discount on AC chargers that are less than 100 metres away from your residence. This would prevent chargers being hogged by commuters or visitors.

 

[chrish17168]

For me and my Ioniq 5 I'm averaging 3.5 m/kWh at home and paying a maximum of 7p/kWh so 2p a mile for home charging.

On longer, faster runs I'm getting around 3m/kWh. In the UK I pay a month at a time for a Tesla subscription when I need it. On my most recent trips that's been at 37p/kWh so 12.3 p/mile.

With the increasing roll out of superchargers and them being opened up to non-Teslas I'm finding it relatively easy to plan them into my journeys. My most recent find is a new one just north of Toddington and only about a mile or so from the M1 next to a garden centre with reasonably decent coffee.

On my trips to France with far more miles to cover, I use Tesla, Izivia (at Mcdonalds), Aldi and Lidl. I'm usually paying between 25c and 30c.

My previous diesel would do about 47 mpg on long runs. (far worse round town). At say £1.40 a litre I make that £6.30 a gallon. So 13.4p per mile. I note petrol and diesel are currently more expensive in France than over here.

So for me the EV is cheaper for 'fuel' in almost every scenario except on very rare occasions where I have to use a more expensive provider.

 

[Electric Jamie]

If we take 8000 miles as a reasonable average for someone with a new-ish EV, and the 2.9 miles per kWh from your original post... we get:
<48p per kWh

I checked your maths and it seems to be accurate. So basically if you are able to use Ionity for almost all of your charging, then cost of running an EV is on a par with petrol.

If the Ionity is on your route, or a 1 mile diversion, I think this is a better argument. If you end up driving past a bunch of Instavolts and then driving 10 miles or 20 minutes extra a couple of times a week to get these discounts then you're sort of kidding yourself that it's on a par with petrol as an overall experience, since you're spending more time and money to get there.

 

[Electric Jamie]

Financially the most cost-effective option is to buy a used ICE in good condition and keep it running

I am not sure I got the exact context here.

If we are talking about overall the cheapest cost in terms of total cost of ownership, then having a second hand EV seems to beat having a comparable age second hand petrol car, if you can charge it from home. There are big savings on maintenance, servicing, fuel and possibly repairs to the point where second-hand EVs are even winning nowadays for the people doing 3,000 miles a year. Add for the people doing 7,000 miles a year, it seems to be to be getting to the point where a 5-year old EV can even beat a 15-year old ICE.

 

[tickedon]

I drove a Captur dCi, it would show over 800 km (500mi) of range, then you refill it in 2 minutes and have another 800 km.

Then be specific that you were referring to the Captur (which you didn't do in your original post) not just any generic cheap ICE. Plenty of cheap older smaller ICE cars will not achieve 800km.

 

[Electric Jamie]

2.9mi/kwh is also very conservative, I average low 3s in the ID4 and high 3s in the ID3 over a year, without really trying and with a poor use case. Someone doing more 40-50mph runs than me would average better. Charging losses are lower than your assumption on a rapid, 5% or less so I think a assumption of 3.3-3.5mi/kwh is fair.

3.3mi/kWh I came up with by averaging numerous studies and articles which I can go and dig up and post if anyone is interested.

Keep in mind that there are a lot of people out there not driving as carefully as us, and a lot of people driving around mid and large size SUVs which are factoring into those numbers. Something to consider is that the average EV might still be slightly smaller than the average ICE. The fairer comparison is arguably that the 3.3 average and the miles per gallon ought to be equivalent for a car of the same weight (and perhaps shape) so ti be fair here some slight pessimism on the miles per kWh might be justified?

I used a 10% charging loss which was the average in some articles that I just googled before writing the article. Again, I can post them on request. I didn't want to add 20 sources to the article, then it takes twice as long to write it and is a bit cumbersome. After applying the 10% charging loss I changed it to 3.0.

I then changed it to 2.9 because my personal experience when I've actually measured it has been over 10% and I thought worth using my own experience as I haven't seen studies that actually sourced why they think it is 10% or showed evidence or measurements.

I'm less convinced about the off-peak options because who really wants to leave home and drive to a charger at 9pm at night, or get up early and drive to a charger at 7am. Occasionally, you might be driving past one at just the right time, but not very often. So I'm looking for a realistic price equivalence to petrol that doesn't require a lot more time and hassle to charge.

 

[BeesKnees]

The Captur easily does 400+ miles/650km on "one charge" in winter if you drive it at 70 mph on the motorway.

How many times have you driven 400 miles without stopping?

Only idiots do those kinds of distances without a break so why should a range beyond what is a reasonable distance be a deal breaker?

 

[sidehaas]

3.3mi/kWh I came up with by averaging numerous studies and articles which I can go and dig up and post if anyone is interested.

Keep in mind that there are a lot of people out there not driving as carefully as us, and a lot of people driving around mid and large size SUVs which are factoring into those numbers. Something to consider is that the average EV might still be slightly smaller than the average ICE. The fairer comparison is arguably that the 3.3 average and the miles per gallon ought to be equivalent for a car of the same weight (and perhaps shape) so ti be fair here some slight pessimism on the miles per kWh might be justified?

I used a 10% charging loss which was the average in some articles that I just googled before writing the article. Again, I can post them on request. I didn't want to add 20 sources to the article, then it takes twice as long to write it and is a bit cumbersome. After applying the 10% charging loss I changed it to 3.0.

I then changed it to 2.9 because my personal experience when I've actually measured it has been over 10% and I thought worth using my own experience as I haven't seen studies that actually sourced why they think it is 10% or showed evidence or measurements.

I'm less convinced about the off-peak options because who really wants to leave home and drive to a charger at 9pm at night, or get up early and drive to a charger at 7am. Occasionally, you might be driving past one at just the right time, but not very often. So I'm looking for a realistic price equivalence to petrol that doesn't require a lot more time and hassle to charge.

Losses are not the same for all chargers. 5% is typical on rapids. 8-10% at 7kw, 15-20% on a granny.
I would suggest your average BEV is larger than your average ICE (quite considerably actually), not vice versa.

 

[tickedon]

How many times have you driven 400 miles without stopping?

Only idiots do those kinds of distances without a break so why should a range beyond what is a reasonable distance be a deal breaker?

While I know this wasn't directed at me, I've driven 440 miles in one go... exactly once. Driving from Scotland to London on a Sunday evening/night, and able to maintain 70mph more or less the whole way. It didn't actually cause me any problems, but equally it's not something I've ever felt the need to do again, and it pre-dates my dependence on coffee.

My Enyaq 85 can't quite do that journey with just one stop - so it's usually a quick breakfast/lunch/dinner stop and charge, and then another comfort break stop for another coffee and quick charge. Which doesn't actually add any extra time to my journey! My partner was pleasantly surprised the first time we did it, as they expected more stops and more waiting...

 

[Fran K]

How many times have you driven 400 miles without stopping?

Only idiots do those kinds of distances without a break so why should a range beyond what is a reasonable distance be a deal breaker?

Why do you get so excited when there’s news about solid-state batteries and 500 miles of range, when 80 miles in 2011 Nissan Leaf is more than enough because “only an idiot wouldn’t stop every 50 miles”? Why spending on a BEV with over 80 miles of range if you have to stop anyway?

I may not have driven 440 miles in one go like Tickedon, but at night, in winter, with nothing working,.. I have no reason to stop unless I need the loo, but that’s just two minutes.

It’s absurd what EVangelists will come up with just to make a Leaf with a 22 kWh usable battery and 83 miles of range when new, probably not even half that now, look like a better car than an ICE. Kia Ceed crdi or Sportage, a family SUV, have a range of over 500 miles and you can find one for less than £5,000.

Because the EV must always be better than the ICE. Grow a pair and admit the fact that’s obvious to everyone except the biggest idiots. In the class of cheap used cars, ICE has no competition.

Then be specific that you were referring to the Captur (which you didn't do in your original post) not just any generic cheap ICE. Plenty of cheap older smaller ICE cars will not achieve 800km.

Which of those ICEs has a shorter range than your Enyaq, which you probably paid £30–40k for? I’m talking real-world range, the Enyaq rs have 140 mile range at 75 mph in 20°C (5%-80%). Even the worst cheap ICE will get at least double, if not triple that. Not to mention refuelling speed. It’s not comparable, just accept that fact.

I am not sure I got the exact context here.

If we are talking about overall the cheapest cost in terms of total cost of ownership, then having a second hand EV seems to beat having a comparable age second hand petrol car, if you can charge it from home. There are big savings on maintenance, servicing, fuel and possibly repairs to the point where second-hand EVs are even winning nowadays for the people doing 3,000 miles a year. Add for the people doing 7,000 miles a year, it seems to be to be getting to the point where a 5-year old EV can even beat a 15-year old ICE.

For £5k, you can get a BEV that’s only really suitable for driving around the village, as a third or fourth family car (unless you never leave the village). To get a somewhat usable BEV that can take you to a nearby town (still not comparable to an ICE for trips) you’ll have to pay at least double, if not three times as much. The OBC for a Stellantis costs £3,800 and apparently you can’t fit a second-hand one.

If you’re willing to take the risk and can charge at home, a small EV (vw e-up) can work as a second car, so you don’t have to fire up a Captur dCi or a BMW 330d just to pop to the shops. You can find them cheaply because many aren’t willing to take the risk, EV repairs are usually expensive and can exceed the car’s value.

 

[Xinix]

Why do you get so excited when there’s news about solid-state batteries and 500 miles of range, when 80 miles in 2011 Nissan Leaf is more than enough because “only an idiot wouldn’t stop every 50 miles”? Why spending on a BEV with over 80 miles of range if you have to stop anyway?

I may not have driven 440 miles in one go like Tickedon, but at night, in winter, with nothing working,.. I have no reason to stop unless I need the loo, but that’s just two minutes.

It’s absurd what EVangelists will come up with just to make a Leaf with a 22 kWh usable battery and 83 miles of range when new, probably not even half that now, look like a better car than an ICE.

Because the EV must always be better than the ICE. Grow a pair and admit the fact that’s obvious to everyone except the biggest idiots. In the class of cheap used cars, ICE has no competition.



Which of those ICEs has a shorter range than your Enyaq, which you probably paid £30–40k for? I’m talking real-world range, the Enyaq rs have 140 mile range at 75 mph in 20°C (5%-80%). Even the worst cheap ICE will get at least double, if not triple that. Not to mention refuelling speed. It’s not comparable, just accept that fact.



For £5k, you can get a BEV that’s only really suitable for driving around the village, as a third or fourth family car (unless you never leave the village). To get a somewhat usable BEV that can take you to a nearby town (still not comparable to an ICE for trips) you’ll have to pay at least double, if not three times as much. The OBC for a Stellantis costs £3,800 and apparently you can’t fit a second-hand one.

If you’re willing to take the risk and can charge at home, a small EV (vw e-up) can work as a second car, so you don’t have to fire up a Captur dCi or a BMW 330d just to pop to the shops. You can find them cheaply because many aren’t willing to take the risk, EV repairs are usually expensive and can exceed the car’s value.

Not all in life and cars is about range. If range is so important to you, if you want to do 800 km in one go, and only wish to stop for a piss, then please, keep driving an ICE.

An EV beats an ICE in many other aspects. It is more comfortable, faster, easier to drive, more silent, cheaper and faster to refuel (if you have home charging) and it is way, way better for the environment.

 

[BeesKnees]

Why do you get so excited when there’s news about solid-state batteries and 500 miles of range,

I don't.

My EV does 3-4 hours of driving and that's enough for anyone.

So why are you using a 15 year old example as your comparison and assuming I'm after more range?

Basically because you need strawmen to make a valid argument.

 

[Fran K]

It’s like saying I need a strawman to prove that India is bigger than Belgium.

I don’t - it’s a fact.

@Xinix: if range isn’t important to you, you could have saved a lot of money by going for a much cheaper EV than the Kia EV6 RWD LR.

For the environment, the best is not to have a car at all. The fact that you’re here shows you clearly don’t care about it, you’re not willing to make the sacrifices for the environment that Greta does.

A Mercedes ICE is definitely more comfortable than a Dacia/Citroen/Kia EV. EV is quieter, although modern ICEs are also quiet, and at higher speeds the environmental noise outweighs engine noise anyway. This means an ICE can be quieter than an EV, as has been proven with Tesla.

It’s only cheaper to refuel if you don’t leave home, otherwise, it isn’t. Electric Jamie showed that in #1. If you believe an EV charges faster than an ICE, I’ll give you the chance to make a fortune. I’ll give you a million euros for every euro you invest if we meet at a charger next to a petrol station and you charge your BEV faster than I refuel ICE.

 

[BeesKnees]

It’s like saying I need a strawman to prove that India is bigger than Belgium

No it's like saying you need to live in India because it's bigger than Belgium.

There is a reason why people who drive for a living are limited as to how many hours they can drive without stopping

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e14b5b040f0b65dbed713a0/simplified-guidance-eu-drivers-hours-working-time-rules.pdf

 

[Fran K]

You’re just comforting yourself.

You can stop five times for two or three minutes, or you can stop once at a service area and sleep if you find a spot, which is often difficult. Even in Norway, EVs make up only 13% of new truck sales, and that hasn’t really increased. In the UK, electric trucks account for just 0.5% of the market.