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Ev reliability and maintenance

5.3K views 36 replies 18 participants last post by  Siraff  
#1 ·
We often talk about how reliable EVs are with lower ongoing maintenance cost.

I "get" the concept of why that may be. Fewer moving parts etc, simpler design.

Has any large sample research been done that backs up this theory?

Warranty claims data perhaps? Or something akin.
 
#2 ·
Best best is Consumer Reports in the USA. They should have a large enough sample size to get decent stats. Renault EVs won't be in there since they aren't sold in the UK.

You could also check Which but there may not be enough cars in the sample. Which won't even list some cars until they get 20 survey replies.



Simpler design is largely a myth. The electric machine has fewer moving parts but overall the cars are complex.

For the most part, the internal moving engine parts in an ICE don't fail in the first 10 years or so. Maintenance is much lower than it used to be. Our last petrol car only needed an oil change once every 15,000 miles although we did it annually. Spark plugs weren't due until the 6th oil change. Air Filter was every 3rd oil change. Oxygen sensor was due every 120,000 miles.
 
#5 ·
#4 ·
The savings for the owner should come from no oil changes, no fuel filters, no oil filters, no sparking plugs. i.e. fewer consumables. From reports by owners less brake pad wear so less replacements.
The rest of the car is pretty bog standard with tyres, wheel bearings, track rod ends, bush bearing and shock absorbers the same or similar to ICE cars with I expect a similar wear/failure rate. As far as cost goes, since most servicing comprises of 'visually inspect' with a complementary mishmash of 'goodies', (car wash, collect and deliver, etc. ) the overall cost of servicing is unlikely to be much less than for an ICE.
 
#7 ·
The savings for the owner should come from no oil changes, no fuel filters, no oil filters, no sparking plugs. i.e. fewer consumables. From reports by owners less brake pad wear so less replacements.
The rest of the car is pretty bog standard with tyres, wheel bearings, track rod ends, bush bearing and shock absorbers the same or similar to ICE cars with I expect a similar wear/failure rate. As far as cost goes, since most servicing comprises of 'visually inspect' with a complementary mishmash of 'goodies', (car wash, collect and deliver, etc. ) the overall cost of servicing is unlikely to be much less than for an ICE.
I'm quite interested in this. I'm not sure there would be a great difference over most vehicles life since the battery in the ev is going to need swapping at some point. Most diesels these days will go well over 200k miles with basic maintenance and the odd replacement part which I would think would be on par with an ev needing a battery in that time.
The "cycle parts" as such are largely the same regardless of where the power comes from - with the possible exception that the heavier ev will need bigger bits or more frequent swaps.
The brakes lasting forever on an ev seems a bit touch and go aswell since a lot of people are having to replace them through lack of use so while they are likely to need less friction material swaps, they are more likely to need discs when they do.
Coolant, brake fluid, etc is usually the same for either - I know a lot of ev's don't have liquid cooling but then early ice's didn't either.

It does seem like there are a lot of swings and roundabouts leading to very similar results.
 
#10 ·
EV's don't have cam belts, clutches or exhaust pipes, engine air filters or oxygen sensors to change. The suspension parts should be a bit bigger so wear shouldn't be any worse than an ICE. there's a bit added complexity to the brake system and the unknown quantity of the motor drive electronics and charger. Other things that no longer exist are auxiliary drive belts, alternators and starter motors particulate filters and catalytic converters. Some of these parts need changing periodically, some fail prematurely. The front brake wear on my car is really minimal after ÂŁ16K miles, the discs are hardly marked. I think it's unlikely that they will need replacing before the end of life of the car.

As EV's are still quite small volumes I would anticipate more problems with the parts that have been designed specifically for EV's no doubt any problems will be ironed out in later versions.

I expect depreciation to dwarf any savings from servicing costs though, that is until battery technology and manufacture matures and range no longer increases as new models are produced.
 
#11 ·
Dare I mention dual mass flywheels, diesel particulate filters (and the associated liquids like Eloys) and injection systems? Not the most reliable, or cheap of items.
Never yet heard of an EV charger or inverter failing.
 
#15 ·
...Never yet heard of an EV charger or inverter failing.
My granny brick charger failed at about 3 years old. Replaced by non-GM one which appears to work. The early ones like mine are known to be flakey. But maybe you didn't mean that kind of charger?
My internal mains-charger in the car has failed. Soon to go into dealer to be fixed. I know of another one which also seems to have failed, but with a different error-code. That one is not yet fixed afaik.
My internal High-voltage Contactors failed & welded themselves open or shut in the process - result was a flatbed trip.
None of these components exist in a pure ICE.

Fact of the matter is, EVs have a different set of failure characteristics as there are far more high-power electronic bits which tend to have a bathtub-curve failure pattern; high failure rate when brand new as any flaws quickly result in burnt-out component; followed by many years of reliable low-failure rate; followed by increasing failure rates as things like the design lifetime of electrolytic capacitors is exceeded, the number of thermal cycles suffered by components starts to fatigue the chippery & connections inside the chips, etc.
 
#13 ·
We often talk about how reliable EVs are with lower ongoing maintenance cost.

I "get" the concept of why that may be. Fewer moving parts etc, simpler design.

Has any large sample research been done that backs up this theory?

Warranty claims data perhaps? Or something akin.
The problem with this question is that different owners have different views on maintenance costs. Do we measure only Dealer servicing, or only DIY servicing, or a mix?
My earlier answer related to dealer servicing only, which at least gives a stable base. Every owner spends differently on DIY servicing, with differing standards also. Some owners will buy best quality oils and other consumables, whilst others will buy any old rubbish.
Quoting extremes of mileage is unhelpful , as both quotes are based on truth. 70k miles or 200k miles? So many variables.
The other big variable /unknown is the long term average costs for EVs. Tyre wear, and battery degradation can so often depend on the owner rather than the vehicle.

I guess the full answer to the question is 'We don't yet know.'
 
#14 · (Edited)
Simpler design is largely a myth. The electric machine has fewer moving parts but overall the cars are complex.

For the most part, the internal moving engine parts in an ICE don't fail in the first 10 years or so. Maintenance is much lower than it used to be. Our last petrol car only needed an oil change once every 15,000 miles although we did it annually. Spark plugs weren't due until the 6th oil change. Air Filter was every 3rd oil change. Oxygen sensor was due every 120,000 miles.
I would disagree- the number of individual components are far fewer. A diesel will have a crankshaft sensor, camshaft sensor, oxygen sensor, at least one fuel pressure sensor, temperature sensors for coolant, fuel, intake air and 3 for exhaust gas, pressure sensors for atmosphere, inlet manifold, and exhaust, mass air flow sensor, position sensors for the accelerator pedal, throttle body, EGR valve and swirl flaps, motors or solenoids for throttle body, EGR valve, EGR cooler bypass, turbocharger vanes, swirl flaps, radiator blind, cooling fans, fuel pressure, fuel flow, in some cases one or more low pressure fuel pump, as well as heating elements for glow plugs, auxillary heating, oxygen sensors and electronic thermostats, not to mention mechanical components such as crankshafts and pistons, turbochargers, water pumps and a fuel system that runs at 2000 bar, and all of this is without the transmission components, which are far simpler on an EV.

I'd have agreed with you in the past about the second point but things have changed in recent years. In my opinion cars in general got more and more reliable until a turning point in the 1990s/2000s and have gone downhill in reliability terms since. Try finding a three-year old diesel Range Rover of the current generation that is on its original engine, or a diesel Mazda for that matter.

A curiosity of the car industry is that frequently technology works best when it is new, in contrast to logic. I think manufacturers know they have one chance to prove the technology, and once done, they can start cost-cutting later on. For example the original Peugeot HDi engine, the DW10 with Bosch fuel system, launched in 1997 is far more reliable than anything they have made since. Likewise the third generation Toyota Prius sometimes suffers inverter problems which never affected its ancestors. The early EGR valves across all manufacturers worked better than they do now, and clutch hydraulics are failing within a year. Timing chains, once a sign of a well-made engine, nowadays fail routinely, sometimes within the first year of a car's life. Look at the Vauxhall Ampera's reliability record compared to something like a Mokka- GM knew if their first electric car was poor, they would be suffering for decades, whereas the other garbage they make doesn't have the same long-lasting effect. The Ampera uses the strengthened engine block from the Corsa Turbo, despite being under lower load than a conventional engine, and the whole car is similarly full of proper engineering, because they couldn't afford any problems.

In terms of extended service intervals, unfortunately these are dictated by the marketing departments, rather than by engineering. A lease company will look at the total cost of ownership for the first few years, and cost cars based on this figure. This is why many manufacturers have changed from cambelts to timing chains, as although the latter offers no real advantage, because there is no scheduled maintenance, it keeps the fleets happy. The Austin Metro was launched with 12000 mile service intervals, but its suspension needed greasing every 3000 miles to keep it from wearing, and the points and condensor needed attention at similar mileages. Exactly the same thing happens all the time now. If you want the car to last for the warranty/lease period, then maintain as the manufacturer suggests. If you want 10 or 20 years out of it, I would suggest a few more oil changes at the very least.
 
#16 ·
#20 ·
I pose a couple of simple questions :-

1. How many EV owners have found themselves 'broken down' away from home? and why.
and
2. How many have been flatbedded under the Nissan scheme for 'no charger availability'?


I know several have had 12v battery problems at home but how reliable/unreliable are EVs in use.
 
#21 ·
I pose a couple of simple questions :-

1. How many EV owners have found themselves 'broken down' away from home? and why.
it is interesting that you specify away from home.

I think EVs will have a much higher incidence of breaking down at home, and if it is a bad breakdown it is little better than when away. If an ICE doesn't start at home, it usually means it is either totally worn out and is time for the scrapyard anyway, or the battery has gone flat (also probably because it is totally worn out!).

EVs work differently and don't have a 'warm-up' period after which things rattle themselves loose. Instead the electrics may suffer from condensates over night sitting still for too long.

EVs are simply 'not there' yet in terms of reliability. They are especially not there in terms of 'availability' because the median repair time for an ICE is a day or two while for an EV it is a month or two. Many people with unreliable EVs have had their EVs awaiting repair for 10% or more of the total time they have owned the vehicle. This is unthinkable for ICE ownership.
 
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#26 ·
I think reliability depends more on who makes it and their goals than anything else. When someone like Lexus turns up with a decent ev we shall see what the differences are.
How reliable the ev's are seems to mirror the same companies' ice's. Soul ev's seem more solid than Zoe's - much in the same way their ice equivalents are. BMW can make the odd screw up on a first batch but tend to sort it after that and so on.
If Toyota/Lexus bring one out and it gives issues we should have our answer.
 
#29 ·
To me the whole ICE/EV thing is about pollution, and progress and 'filling up' at home, most of the time.
Ice cars these days whether cheap or expensive are very reliable.
As in all things there are exceptions, but overall ICE cars are good, well made and fit for their purpose.
it does not really matter, at this stage, whether one is more reliable than the other.
One is the past and one the future.
I am interested to know what maintenance checks EV owners make on their cars?
Tyres: Water bottle: Fire extinguisher (Tesla owners :cool: ) : ??: ??.
 
#30 ·
I am interested to know what maintenance checks EV owners make on their cars?
Check the phone in the morning, that proves the car has charged. Cursory check of tyres for a flat as I store the cable. Get in, drive.

When I wash the car I check the washer bottle, I haven't filled it myself yet and I'm 18 months in.
 
#32 ·
All ICE and hybrid vehicles are also worse in winter, no engine likes being cold.
Yes EV energy use increases mine typically falls from 4.9kwh/mile to about 3.4 if I keep things toasty, but my ground level emmisions around town remain the same.
hybrids improve things a bit not dramatically, real world 50-80 mpg not real world 100-200 mpg.
Plug-in Hybrids, I could maybe accept your point for, but plug-in Toyota's on the road are very few and far between, they make them for the headlines but are far less intrested in actually selling them than their mild bread and butter hybrids
 
#37 ·
All ICE and hybrid vehicles are also worse in winter, no engine likes being cold.
Yes EV energy use increases mine typically falls from 4.9kwh/mile to about 3.4 if I keep things toasty, but my ground level emmisions around town remain the same.
hybrids improve things a bit not dramatically, real world 50-80 mpg not real world 100-200 mpg.
Plug-in Hybrids, I could maybe accept your point for, but plug-in Toyota's on the road are very few and far between, they make them for the headlines but are far less intrested in actually selling them than their mild bread and butter hybrids
Big difference being the ice only uses more by being cold for slightly longer - we're talking a couple of minutes difference at most. The ev will use hugely more all the time the heater is on so any trip over a mile or two and the hybrid starts to get more efficient compared to the ev since it doesn't have to "pay" for it's heat.
You're also mixing mpg up with emissions. A decent diesel will be better on mpg almost anywhere apart from a city centre than most non plugin hybrids but which exhaust would you rather breathe?
What your emissions at point of use are is only relevant if it's not polluting anywhere else.
Total lifetime emissions would be interesting to see since most of Toyota's hybrids are relatively low energy to build and recycle, don't burn masses of fuel and haven't got a massive battery to worry about. They also seem to look after their batteries very well with quite a lot of very old ones still going strong even with massive mileages.
Volt/Amperas seem to pull off the same trick.
I would wager something like an i3 rex could give the best total life emissions.
 
#35 ·
My wife's 45k chevy volt is just about to have its third 4th service. To date the service by service costs and any non warrenty repairs (0) are about 1/3 of the cost of my 83k Honda Civic 2.2 i-Dtec. And Honda is reliable and has a longer service cycle by 2.5k miles. For us without a shadow of a doubt the running costs of the Volt in all areas are way cheaper than the Honda with insurance being about the same. Last Volt service at 35k said brake pads only 85% worn. About every 2 services, 25k Honda advise the front or rear pads need changing soon. If I'm lucky I stretch them another whole service. M
 
#36 ·
It is interesting the people who travel the most, and pollute the most, have little choice
but to use an ICE.
Those who travel least, and pollute least, find the current EV range attractive.
Unless you can afford the Tesla, of course.
Things will change in the next few years, and will open up EV travel for all!